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cyndiekb

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:54 pm

ohh and do I need to say the WHeels! I will be good and stop there :)
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:11 pm

Goodness.. I don't know how some of you deal with this vending stuff. I've been making a lot of neat toys here, but I'd be afraid to ever try and sell them due to a fear of unknowingly copying. I think that we're sort of limited with what we can make for our gliders... there is, after all, only so much that can be done. With that being the case, we do eventually get to the point that we're bound to copy one another (to an extent).

One thing I am wondering in all of this, and it may be the wrong place to ask is... how do you all feel about someone making your toys for themselves? For instance, say I see a super cute toy made by some fantastic suggie toy vendor, and just can't afford it but can find the parts to make it cheap. So, I decide to make myself the toy. Say I then post a photograph of my cage online, and you (the vendor) see the photograph and the toy, and you know you didn't make it. Would this be stepping on your toes? Irritating? Upsetting? Would this equal "copying" to you, even though I wouldn't be selling them?

On the same lines, how do you feel about someone making a copy of your toy (and perhaps editting it, by adding or subtracting certain features) and gifting it in a gift exchange? Okay, or not okay?
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:33 pm

This fight has been fought & argued over and over so many times. There is very little room for some things to be considered original- making something from a pattern, is not considered one's idea. Making something that was once a ferret or rat bedding item now the size for gliders, is not considered one's own production. Many of the toy ideas out there, stem from bird toys that have been being produced a lot longer than stuff for gliders.

Everyone has had something of theirs produced by another. People making a product & selling it in private is just as wrong and that happens around here too!! People shouldn't point fingers unless they are 100% themselves not doing the same thing!!

Sara, I don't see anything wrong with making something for yourself that is a replicate of someone else's toy. Yep I've made my gliders toys that someone could think were made by the vendor. Giving that item in a gift exchange could be touchy and could cause confusion because the person would say thanks for the toy made by so & so and then that would open a can of worms. Everyone has their opinions and you'll never have everyone agree.

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BindiAndScrubbie

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:03 pm

Sara....making yourself something is fine in my book. I see absolutely nothing wrong in that. Gifting it out though (just my opinion) IS opening a can of worms. I think that is too close to crossing the fine line because that opens the door for anyone to use the gifting excuse as an avenue to start the copy fad. There are just too many dishonest people (cough certain name that rhymes with Noodles cough) that would take that and run with it.

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GliderNursery

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Quote :
Kathy was making a pvc tree quite some time ago- now that she has closed shop does that leave that item untouchable?

I discussed my tree at FIBB 09 in Tennessee, in part to see if those there thought it to be a good idea, but to also see if anyone else was already making them. No one in attendance was aware. Then after I got home and started the designing/making of it, I seen Kathy post hers. I contacted her, we discussed the trees in PM, and she "authorized" me to make and sell them. I do still have a copy of this PM.
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:49 pm

Shelly, I dont think that Nancy was trying to say anything against your tree (I could be wrong, its been known to happen). I think what she was saying is since Kathy has closed her shop is her design untouchable to others...lets say Jane Doe came out with a PVC Pipe tree like Kathy made, is that still voodoo even though Kathy is closed or is it than ok??

Kind of like when I told John since he was closing shop I was going to steal all his ideas and make his toys. Although I did use a couple of his *ideas* involved with his toys, I still created my own. But lets say I did make his toys...exactly they way he did... would it be wrong since he was closed and not sure how long or if he would ever be back? I think that is what she was trying to get to come across, Nancy correct me if Im wrong.

I personally dont think ANY of the three trees look alike...They are all made differently with different materials and although they all have the same *idea* in mind, they are all unique and easy to tell who makes which one.

Lets go back to the very first pics that Val posted....Tracys pouch....Jens Pouch...to me they look identical.
Tracy ADMITTED to making Davies EXACT toy, I dont care if it was to give it away, it was still exact. Just like I fussed at Alicia when Alicia told Tracy she didnt care if she made the pouch that resembled the sissy pouch... it was just WRONG that Tracy always seems to be *collecting ideas* from others and instead of changing it up, she makes them real close to the exact and claims them as her own...and she is NOT the only one to do this...there are a few out there that do.

I say if you dont agree with what they are doing then dont buy from them. Dont recommend them. Dont give them the time of day....
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jacknsally

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:30 pm

Sorta Peggy- someone pointed out another pvc tree and was saying it was a copycat- so that's why I asked - is it considered copying if the person is no longer offering them. Because why would they say they copied Shelly but not Kathy- they both do pvc trees. Just like with the Coco-peeps - is no one allowed to offer a coconut toy with eyes & such even though Chrissy hasn't offered one in who knows how long?

Shelly, I wasn't questioning or implying anything about your permission or accusing you of copying- just wondering if there was an off limits to a certain product when not in production. Who knows Krys may not have known about your tree but knew Kathy had closed her pvc store.



srlb wrote:
I say if you dont agree with what they are doing then dont buy from them. Dont recommend them. Dont give them the time of day....

Yeah, since you don't like them, just ask another vendor to make & sell you the same product behind their back- Yes I'm being sarcastic but pointing out that we do know people are doing this!!
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GliderNursery

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:09 pm

Sorry if I offended anyone, but wanted to clarify that I did not copy anyone's design. And because Kathy brought hers to the board first, I felt obligated to contact her before I debuted mine. Yes, they are both trees, but they are totally different looks.

Also, just for clarification, both mine and KryKritter's trees came out while Kathy was still in business.

As far as if a store closes, does that make their product free game? I don't know. Maybe they should either authorize one person to take over making their product, or sell the rites to the design. So here's my question, if someone closes and doesn't allow anyone else to make the product and glider owners want the product, are they just out of luck? Dunno the answer to that.
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Chris R

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:26 am

Anyone else find it ironic that Tracy (tootles) last name is Mulligan.....You know what you call out when you want a "do over"........
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Jill Marie

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:56 am

This is a very interesting thread. As someone who makes LOTS of things, I am always concerned that someone will "steal" an idea, or that I will make something that someone else already does and accuse me of stealing. In the jewelry making world it happens alot. I have researched the whole "copyright" design thing, and it is a hard process. The copyright office doesnt really want to even copyright crafts because as they say "it is possible for 2 people to design the same thing without knowledge of each other."
I worry most, believe it or not, about my cookie recipe. I do believe it has great potential, and want to bring it to a "manufacturer" but it would be so easy for them to analyze it, change one ingredient, and claim the idea was their's all along. I have the same issue with my afghan patterns, which are truly unique. or my bead-loom jewelry designs (gorgeous!)
basically the copyright office says, "first person to make it and put it in a written form, owns the copyright". note: it does not necessarily need to be published either. But if you wanted to take action against a person, you would need to prove you had it first. so publishing, such as on a website, would be proof. you could have made an item 20 years ago, and your friend stole the idea, you own it, but if they put it up on a site, you cant prove you had it first. they might win in a court of law. Now if you had pictures, with the date imprinted, that could be considered proof.
while I wouldnt want anyone "stealing" any of my designs, imitation is flattery in a sense.
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Jill Marie

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:35 am

another thought...
I went on GC and posted about an idea I had for a "Glider Glove". MANY people hooped on and said what a great idea. about half a dozen people said they were going to go and make themselves one. Was I happy about that? ummmm. not really. I would rather they bought it from me. But I also understand that some people may "need" this, and cant afford to buy it (though I only charge a very small amount over the cost of the materials). But if someone started making them and selling them, different name or not, even if they altered it slightly, I would be mad/upset.
The problem is, in business, you cannot control what other people do. and unfortunately, there are more dishonest rather than honest people out there. and the court systems dont always work, or are even worth the bother (ask any single parent that has had to do custody or child support battles)
I have seen many items appear on "members" websites AFTER I had starting marketing them, and I say "oh look they took my idea" but the truth is, maybe they did, maybe they didnt. maybe they came up with the idea in the shower one day when they had never seen mine. it is possible. great minds do think alike :)
I am sure some of those people may look at my site and say "HEY!"
as for "boycotting" vendors...another very grey area in my book. but that is a subject for another thread...
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BindiAndScrubbie

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:58 am

Well first off, hello and welcome to TSS. :) Please take a moment to read up on the rules here, as the mothership of the board really appreciates the use of capital letters where necessary. lol!

Secondly, talking about patents, copyrights, court...to be honest I really would never waste my time going that far. I mean in the big scheme of things...what are most of us making? Crafts for animals in a nutshell. I don't do it to make money. In fact, most would be surprised to find out that I (and a lot of us) don't make much money at all. If any in the long run. After sinking so much into parts, packing materials, paying the shipping for having those parts come in from many different places, (there's no one-stop glider part vendor unless you keep to minimal things offered) pay pal fees, time...If I were smart and had business sense, I'd quit altogether if I were in it for the money. I'm not, I do it because I enjoy it and it makes me happy to know that I can make things for the animals I love and making people happy in turn, makes me happy. So no, I personally would never consider the headache of copyrights and court. To me it's simple decency. There are people that have been in this community long enough to know what's being offered to their gliders, what's out there for their use and enjoyment. Those people also know what's right and wrong. Copycatting is about pure common courtesy and decency. (Or lack of) To me, what's worse than copycat competition is the fact that not only are people out there 'stealing product ideas' but when doing that, they also 'steal your thunder' so to speak. It's taking away the pride you had in coming up with a particular idea. When you think, in such a narrow field of glider products on the market, that you thought out of the box (or tried to) and came up with something that you thought might be original or special, well someone comes along and takes the special right out from underneath you. It hurts your feelings.
Sure in the big picture, they're only 'glider crafts' but that doesn't make them any less special to the person who made them to begin with.

I for one, did some thinking after this thread went up. Going forward, I absolutely will not buy from a known copycat. And I will never have respect for them either.


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Jill Marie

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:31 am

I agree, I would not go that far either and also avoid buying from copycats (if I know they are one ), I brought it up to explain the legal issues of copycats. Just in case anyone was interested.

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:40 pm

Davie, I can't imagine anyone else coming up with your ideas! I think they are very unique, and a basic signature to me. If I were to see the same item sold elsewhere, I would definitely know your style, and alert you asap!

Coming up with ideas similar to others, is also a very real thing. I for one, have never seen the trees posted in this thread before, and I too, thought I was coming up with a really cool idea! Thank goodness I didn't make a fool of myself!

I have been making no sew, fleece blankets for many years. I sell them only when people ask me to make them one, not as a marketing thing. Many people make these blankets, and sell for an outrageous amount of money. I see lots of no sew items being sold in the glider community. I'm guessing this is similar to the basic pouch, where everyone can make and sell a pouch, but once a special twist has been added, that becomes a person's signature.

I make my own cage accessories, and cages. I loved the pouch Roya made me, and decided that was the style for me. I make things for myself, not for selling. I built a pvc cage using specs from a website, and then came up with my own specs. I buy my toy parts from Critter Hill. I've tried shopping at other places, but found them to be the most reliable.

I will be more conscious of what I buy, and where, but unfortunately, unless I've seen a product made by someone else, I can't guarantee I wouldn't buy from a copycat.

I've never heard of Tootles, so I know I haven't purchased from her.
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:23 am

Geez all this talk of copy of cats brought up a question in me head... is there a way for us to know that some mean person has a copycatted an idea?
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cyndiekb

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:34 pm

I shop gliderdaydreams for my husky pouch but I know her product. If I see it on another site I know it hands down no question they were copied. I close the site and wont return there.
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:48 pm

This thread was originally opened not as a discussion, but as a place to show "copycats". So, on this site, here is where you will see.

Quote :
Please use this thread to show the original product (name the vendor ) and the date the original was first offered, then show us the copy and tell use WHO is copying it so those like me who want to avoid buying from them can.

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blueangelexotics



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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:05 pm

There is a girl named laurel's zoo on Facebook and esty.com she makes tents like mine only without poles around bottom.She also makes the fish that Nicole makes.
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jacknsally

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:52 pm

blueangelexotics wrote:
there is a girl named laurel's zoo on facebook and esty.com she makes tents like mine only without poles around bottom.She also makes the fish that Nicole makes.

Both of those are items available by pattern from Simplicity - I wouldn't consider those copycats
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kryskritters

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:53 pm

sugeebaby wrote:
Another person that has been copied is Glider Nursery. She came out with the Sugar Maple tree in June of 09. I got one of the first ones. then she had them to sell at the SGGA that year. In Sept 09 she posted on all the boards about them. Oct 09 krys kritters came out with the Apple tree claiming she was the first.

I am not on this board often but I do want to clarify that I did NOT copy anyone with my trees! The apple tree did come out in Oct 2009 but that was not my 1st tree. I introduced my willow tree in March 2009 http://lauriesglidergazette.forumotion.com/t7636-suggie-willow-tree?highlight=copied+tree and I was discussing it's progress and introduction of not only the willow but an entire "collection" of trees for quite some time before that.... asking for input etc. I can't find that post because I can't search that far back on LGG.

I also spoke to Glider Nursey back then. I ccan't speak for her but I personal do not think she copied me and I know I did not copy her... I believe she was not on LGG (therefore did not know of my trees) and apparently (if I remember correctly) her idea originated at a glider gathering. The earliest post I can find for her tree is September 2009 http://lauriesglidergazette.forumotion.com/t9756-sugar-maple-tree-for-gliders-loads-of-fun?highlight=glidernursey+tree

As far as Kathy's tree, she intro'd her tree March 2009 as well http://lauriesglidergazette.forumotion.com/t7375-foraging-tree?highlight=copied+tree We spoke as well and although we came up with the ideas with similar timing... each of our designs are unique, even using different pieces in construction.

As far as *I* know, all 3 of us are fine with eachother....

I have been in the glider community for quite awhile.... However with 4 kids, school, and work it is impossible to frequently visit all of the glider boards but I would appreciate the consideration and courtesy that if anyone ever had a question (especially regarding originality) that they would PLEASE ASK ME before posting that I am a "copy cat". Thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:47 pm

USMom wrote:
This thread was originally opened not as a discussion, but as a place to show "copycats". So, on this site, here is where you will see.

Quote :
Please use this thread to show the original product (name the vendor ) and the date the original was first offered, then show us the copy and tell use WHO is copying it so those like me who want to avoid buying from them can.

Well now that Joyce's pouches have ventured out of the closed "Clarksville TN" group, I guess its time to make a post about them...

These are my "Panorama Pouches" :









As you can see, I make them a variety of sizes with slightly shorter/higher sides but overall the same concept.

These are the photos I have seen - I'm sure there are more but I am not permitted on the Clarksville group & the friend who showed me this is no longer a member so I only have ones that were posted publicly:



(hung with the top together):




A couple months ago, Bourbon told me she was having someone make my pouches for her rescues because I wasn't sewing(which wasn't true, orders were just taking awhile because I had lots of personal & glider heath issues going on at the time). Joyce then decided not only to make them for her rescues, but to begin selling them. I tried to speak with both Bourbon & Joyce, but was met with a bunch of excuses as to why its OK to copy in this particular instance including: no two of hers are the same or straight(hence the name "askew), so it can't be copying; that its OK if its for rescues or to benefit rescues(I would have agreed to her making them for the rescues had I been contacted FIRST and made sure they were sewn safely); that its OK because its just in their local community(which isn't true anymore); and most recently...because I had gotten feedback, particularly from Bourbon(which I still appreciate to this day) while perfecting them, they are not my unique ideas!

I have decided to post about it mostly because I am also concerned about the safety of them(in the first photo, there are some that were sewn inside out, which Joyce told me she wasn't going to rip out to fix. In addition, she turned down my offer of helping her learn the basics of sewing for gliders & told me hers would not be as good of quality as hers because of the top stitching ). I don't want my pouches to get a bad rap for being unsafe or low-quality. I worked incredibly hard ensure my products were unique(and was chewed out a few times in the process lol) & safe! I truly believe in the products I make & it saddens me that it has come to this...when it could have all been avoided had someone had the courtesy to ask first.
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:19 pm

I'm glad you finally posted about this. Does Joyce have a screen name on any of the forums?

************
Do I understand you to say that you were told that because you took the time in the creation process to get feedback and opinions from other people, that makes the final product NOT a unique idea of yours?


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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:56 pm

That's exactly how I read it, Val - that if the IDEA was given feedback, that it's no longer an idea of their own. Seems I've heard this has happened before?
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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:46 pm

That's ridiculous.

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PostSubject: Re: The Copy Shop   Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:34 am

Seems if it is certain people in our community that copy then it is fine but if it is someone who has only been around for a short amount of time then it is OK to copy them.

Wondering if it is a good idea to advertise on all the forums and then put a little blurb at the bottom of your add saying there is imposter's copying your product and please be sure you are buying form the original creator??

I like this idea and I will be placing an order with you? Do you have a web page?

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