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 Drooling? HLP? Please help!

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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:33 am

I brought Buck home from Matt's on Friday. Well today was the first time I actually got a good look at Buck... I got to have out of cage time with Buck and I noticed a few things that didn't seem right....

I posted a video on GG that I found the other day with gliders that had HLP. And it was the first time I had actually seen it...

Well as Buck walked around, I noticed he walk like the glider with subtle HLP. Which would explain why he runs awkwardly in his wheel...

On top of that I noticed while he was running in his wheel that he stopped a few times and had his mouth open a bit... I knelt down to get a closer look and he was drooling!! Surely this isn't normal?!

What do I do?? Matt had him on BML, but he said it wasn't until recently that he started eating it... And I currently have him on HPW which he has no problem eating. But before Matt, Buck had been to 4 or 5 homes during the past 6 months and I have no idea what they fed him. I tried contacting Matt to find out, but I haven't heard back from him yet...

If Buck does have HLP, what can I do to discontinue it from getting worse??
What does him drooling mean?






I tried to get a video of him walking, but he just wouldn't let me. This is him running in his wheel... This video is to show his difficulty when he runs in his wheel... His legs constantly slide out from under him and gets caught in the hole.


Another note... he didn't start drooling until he got in his wheel... He has never drooled during the other times he was in his wheel though. And during this video he wasn't drooling either.


Val, if I don't have a response by morning I'm going to try and give you a call... I hope that's ok.

I'm really worried about him.


-Mariah
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:21 am

Get him to a vet. That is ALWAYS what you do when you suspect something is wrong.

Do not assume it is HLP. Allow a vet to do a thorough examination and make a clinical diagnosis.

As an aside - lots of gliders have difficulty running in wodent wheels. Esp. if they never had a wheel before or had a safer wheel previously (stealth, TGI, CC). I have not seen the video, and probably won't for a bit. I'm heading out for vet visits and have a slight emergency of my own to deal with today. But, you are more than welcome to call me.

Get him to a vet. Fecals (float, smear and snap test) urinalysis and fecal C&S as well as general physical exam. If you feel it is necessary, get x-rays as well.


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jacknsally

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:49 pm

I don't see the running difficulty in the video? Are you talking about the spinning- where he stops running and just goes around with the wheel? If so, that's normal. Many gliders do that in all wheels, it's part of their enjoyment, it's like they are doing that & checking to see how far they have gone.

With the drooling, do you notice any other odd behaviors that go along with it? Does the drooling only happen at certain times or after certain events? Gliders who have seizures will drool/foam at the mouth. Not saying that's the case but could be something to look into.

I 2nd the vet visit- sounds like this glider has some history and things that are unknown- better to catch to anything early if there is anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:35 pm

Hi,

I of course support the vet visit, but are you sure it's mouth drooling and not an excessively runny nose? Either way, needs to be checked out. Could also be that he's a sloppy drinker. As for the running, mine often stop to take a whirl around as well :)

Cyndi
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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:54 pm

To jackandsally,

What you are seeing in the video is not him going with the wheel, but instead him flailing from his leg getting caught. However, I did put the trim tracks in and that seemed to solve the problem.

The drooling seems to occur when he gets stressed out during out of cage time because it's only when he's in his wheel "running away." He actually does think he can run away when he's in the wheel because if you startle him, he jumps and then sprints in his wheel. However, once back in the comfort of his pouch, the drooling stops all together. As far as odd behaviors and such, I haven't detected any. He as active as ever and is always running in his wheel if he's not eating or drinking.



To Cyndi,

There was no water near him during the time he drooled and he only started drooling in his wheel. His nose is wet from him trying to wipe his face with his hands and his hands were literally soaked in drool. The picture above is actually right after he did this.


-Mariah
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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:31 pm

One thing I was wondering, if a glider doesn't have HLP, but were given a calcium shot as a "just in case" does it harm them?

This hasn't happened (not with me atleast), but I was just wondering.
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:59 am

If it is only one shot, then no, it does not harm them.

HLP is diagnosed through x-rays. Has this glider had any x-rays?

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:38 am

No, he has not.
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 9:23 am

Mariah
This glider NEEDS to see an experienced vet. He needs to have ALL tests run to determine what is wrong - if anything.

Fecal float, fecal smear and SNAP test
Urinalysis
Culture of urine
Culture of feces
And
X-rays

Anything else is a disservice to this glider. You are just guessing and that is not science nor is it helping the glider at all. This is particularly troublesome as you have had several deaths in your home in the last few months and you don't know the cause of them.

Please get this glider to the vet ASAP and have these tests run. Over a week ago you were told that you should not assume anything and that the glider needs to see a vet ASAP. Has there been an initial vet visit? There are listings of vets that will see gliders in your state in our vet section. You are free to add more if you are aware of others.

This is not the place to come and speculate and guess an issue to death. The Sweet Spot was created for sharing of factual information in an effort to help other glider owners. It is NOT to take the place of going to the vet.

So, has the glider seen a vet?

If YES - then what tests were run and what did they reveal? with this information, we might be able to help you more.

If NO, then why not?

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:20 pm

All except the x-ray have been done. And nothing has come up.
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:57 pm

I've been following your posts here and on GG. I'm curious what the vet did say. What was the vet's reason for not doing xrays. So many times, poor diet is blamed when there is another cause. When it comes to mobility issues, xrays are really mandatory to rule out any type of physical injury. On GG, I see that Matt posted and hadn't seen any sypmtoms and is concerned. Stress of rehoming can bring out dormant issues. What date was the vet visit done? It may be a good idea to repeat the fecals as parasites may not be visible on the slide. You ask about a calcium shot. Was this suggested by your vet? It's not always easy to diagnose illness in gliders. Many vet visits may be required. Has your vet seen many gliders? If they do not have a lot of experience, there are several vets who are willing to do a phone consult.
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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 6:29 pm

Ok, here are a bit more details. After discovering his awkwardness in the wheel and his long nails I put the trim tracks in. And the issue he was having stopped. Here's a video of the night after this first post:



After seeing the improvement, I started to wonder if the issue wasn't HLP, but him not being able to walk on a slippery surface (as mentioned in my post on the GG forum). http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=29415

I took him to my vet and explained to her what I've been explaining in these posts. He was taken in on the 22nd. She ran the fecal and urinary tests (since he has no problem providing any of that after being woken up). Nothing was found and she didn't run an x-ray because she wasn't sure what she would be looking for. Her thoughts were that it was probably just an issue with the slippery surface, but to be sure it's not parasites lying dormant, she wants me to bring him back again next week.

Kate, to answer you question regarding my vet, she has seen several gliders, but none that had serious situations as this.

I was actually thinking about seeing if Dr. Olsen would speak with her (since she's the only glider specific vet in my state) and walk her through what she would need to know and look for without me having to actually go to Dr. Olsen because her prices are very steep. If not, then I would provide her with the list of vets to contact. (The one with vets only willing to consult with other vets).


The reason for me asking about the Calcium shot, wasn't because she recommended it, but because I was curious if it could be done as a precaution.
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:03 pm

I don't know of Dr. Olsen, but Dr. Walsh does have a lot of glider experience and he will consult with other vets. With xrays, you may not be looking for a specific sign. It will accomplish 2 things. First, it will rule out any broken bones or diagnose HLP. Second, it will serve as a baselilne if this is an ongoing issue and an xray is repeated in the future. Also, if she does digital radiographs, she can email a copy to another vet for them to read. Another question, did your vet do a dental exam on him? His nose does look wet in your top pic and dental problems can cause drainage. If she didn't do a dental, be sure she does at your upcoming visit.
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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:25 pm

His nose is wet from him trying to wipe his face with his hands and his hands were literally soaked in drool. The picture above is actually right after he did this. But no, she didn't do a thorough dental check other than a quick look with the stick end of what looked like a large q-tip.

I'm not sure if she does digital radiographs, but I will definitely ask her.
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thefotokat

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:34 pm

She probably used the qtip to hold open the mouth to examine the teeth.
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:41 pm

If she doesn't do digital radiographs, then you can take a picture of the x-ray with your digital camera.

X-rays will reveal bone density. THAT is what she would be looking at if she thought this was HLP.

Quote :
my vet, she has seen several gliders, but none that had serious situations as this.
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing the serious situation. Not discounting what you say you see, but having been in the position to see SERIOUS situations repeatedly, what you are potentially dealing with is not the same thing. I believe your vet is competent to handle this glider's issues.

I believe, as was initially suggested in this thread, that you were seeing a glider with normal behavior in a wodent wheel. If you haven't seen a lot of gliders in wodent wheels, you might not understand that his initial performance was perfectly normal. There is probably nothing wrong with this glider - he is just different than your others. This difference is NORMAL.

If the glider is still drooling, then a full dental exam is where I would start. This should be part of a wellness exam.
If you would like, I could email you the SUGAR Group's wellness exam form. This is a good guide for vets that don't tend to do thorough exams.

If the drooling is not progressing, and the issue that caused your concern initially has been cleared up with the trim track, then Yay for the glider!

Get the fecal repeated. If you are still concerned have a full dental exam (which would also be helped with x-rays) and x-rays.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

My favorite color is orange - I'm the normal one.
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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:16 pm

I'm sorry for my IMPROPER use of words, I wasn't trying to say that my situation was serious (seeing as how I had already come to the conclusion that it was just me being paranoid), I was just trying to say that she hasn't dealt with anything more than wellness exams.


As I also stated regarding his behavior in the wheel, the trim tracks solved the issue with his slipping (shown in the second video I provided) which also helped me come to the conclusion that when he "waddles" on my counter it's probably because it has a smooth surface. Before I made any of these posts with concern, I looked up gliders on wodent wheels on youtube before I posted my video. All the videos I came across had no issues running, so I'm assuming that the video was taken with trim tracks in. After my thorough analysis of his problem pretty much being gone, I was still urged to take him to the vet. So I did. And as I have mentioned, the vet came up with the same conclusion I did after running the tests she did.

I'm sorry for the attitude, I just feel like I'm repeating myself or that only half of what I've been saying has been read so I'm getting frustrated.

As I have also mentioned regarding the drooling, it has only happened during out of cage time (Which only took place twice in the bathroom). Considering that it only took place during those two times, in the same environment, and location(wheel), it has lead me to believe that he was either drooling because he came in contact with something or because of stress. During both events, the drooling stopped almost immediately when returned to the safety of his pouch.

If you could send me the e-mail with the SUGAR groups's wellness exam form, that would be great. Thanks.


[I hope you understand the reasoning for my paranoia. As you know, I've had two of my gliders pass. Both of which passed in the care of my fiance. And as you've mentioned, both causes are unknown. I would just hate for me to over look something and find out a few weeks later that Buck has passed as well. If I end up losing one more glider, I will result to nothing more than finding Sweetness another forever home. I love Sweetness dearly as she was my first glider and I know that she has the potential for companionship with another glider because she showed a lot of interest in Snow White before he passed. She just tends to be picky, or perhaps it was because she sensed that Squeakums had an illness that she showed him hostility?]
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KuroNeko

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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:49 pm

KuroNeko wrote:
If you could send me the e-mail with the SUGAR groups's wellness exam form, that would be great. Thanks

I just wanted to make sure it was clear that I wasn't being sarcastic when I said this. I was being rather serious. If it is at all possible, could I please get this? I would like to take it with me to my follow up appt.
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PostSubject: Re: Drooling? HLP? Please help!   Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:37 pm

KuroNeko, you can download all of the surveys here. There is a page full of them. http://www.sugargroup.org/

With the issues that your glider is having, really, we can't diagnose, just offer opinions. That's why you see us ask what the vet has said, and if he's been, and so on. We aren't being mean or pushy, but *I* am very good at saying "It sounds like _____", then getting to the vet and it's something totally different, and I feel stupid, LOL.

I am very interested to see what the vet says about the drooling. The only one I've ever had do it, she would get very excited. They have scent glands in their mouths, and she was marking. Nothing more serious than she wanted the whole house to be hers!

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