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bjve
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PostSubject: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:07 pm

I have some questions that I hope folks can help me with. It involves my female that had the triplets. She did a fabulous job with the joeys. They are happy, healthy, and in their new homes. However, the mom, Luna, is not doing so well. I made sure to supplement her during the pregnancy - lots of treats, going in the pouch to give her treats, putting food and water dishes up next to the pouch (in addition to the regular dinner dishes). She was active and played up until the end, when the joeys were larger & ready to wean. I kept checking on and feeding her in the pouch. She did come out and eat, but stopped playing. She seemed to get weaker, and lost weight. I took her to the vet. This vet is wonderful; she was Luna's previous owner, and genuinely cares. She is new to treating gliders, but has done research and has gotten great at neutering. She felt that Luna’s reflexes and mobility were fine, that she lost muscle and her movements show that - she doesn't move as fluidly as she used to. And still no wheel play. Her fecal and urinalysis were fine. I am still giving her lots of food, she gained weight at the recheck, but today when I weighed her she has lost a few grams. She eats well... loves treats.... bright eyes. Rough movement still. I want to do blood work, but vet says that their machine requires .6ml - more than she wants to take from her. I don't know what to do next. Luna only had singles until the triplets.

Luna is moving very gingerly tonight, had a tough time climbing the side of the small metal hanging dish. I have extra hammocks so that she can get around without using the cage side, and food next to the hammocks for easy access (in addition to the main meal on the floor). She tires out so fast.... so weak. I just don't know what else to do. I am giving them extra food, extra vgv staple, chicken, avocado (in turns). I always have dry roasted mealies in the cage. Lots of dried fruit treats. She had yogurt tonight, but I think tires out and doesn't eat as much. I haven't separated her and Zeke. He is watching over her, and she would be so stressed. I have never caught them mating, or had any outward signs of when that happens, so can't separate at that time. She could feasibly be pregnant again. I really hope she won't do that with her weakened condition - that her instinct would be to not let it happen. I thought I was doing well by her, but apparently I wasn't doing well enough. I supplemented her, not the babies. Any advice??

Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:23 pm

I would not give her any foods that are not really nutritious like dried fruits dried and meal worms. I would only give her things that have good nutritional value as the rest is only going to take up space in her tummy and she might not eat what is good for her.  

I would also call Val and get her opinion. She could go down hill faster then you think in her state. Fingers crossed she is not pregnant again.

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:02 pm

Has she had an x-ray?

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:27 pm

No x-ray. They don't have a digital machine to handle such tiny bones. She did suggest I increase calcium, so I have been adding it into the staple. I did more reading here on TSS - I can offer more calcium-rich foods and supplement, give them a tent on the cage floor.

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:39 pm

I am looking at options for digital x-ray in the area.

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Bobbie    


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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:06 pm

Maybe you should look around for a vet that can do blood work, too. My old vet in Minnesota was so proud of his blood testing machine because it needed VERY little blood. There's got to be a vet nearby who has such a machine?
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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:03 pm

I agree that blood work would be helpful. Even a smear would give you some information.

As for the x-ray ---- they can use any ol' x-ray machine. Digital is not necessary --we were taking x-rays of gliders long before digital x-rays became readily available.

You can always make the drive to see Dr.G.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:14 pm

I didn't realize the machines differed like that!  I will look around.  I would think that even a vet that does not treat exotics could run blood. And I didn't realize that we could do a useful x-ray with the regular machines. I will talk to Heather about that. She is coming over to the house to visit gliders tomorrow or Friday.

I think that I have been too lax in monitoring my gliders diet.  I feed VGV, and they love it.  I follow the instructions and feed my base veggies along with the "varying fruit/veggies of the day".  I vary the staple with each batch, but after looking at all the ingredients & the veggies/fruit I feed, and their calcium:phos ratios, I should have been using calcium powder in all batches that Luna had while nursing the triplets.  I was supplementing her, but with the wrong things.  I have calcium powder - is there a recommended amount for supplementing in a case where the deficiency is showing itself?  She has the symptoms....they match what I found online.  

So....how much calcium do I use to help build Luna's levels back to normal?  I would add it to the staple, in a 16 oz bottle.  I have Calcium Carbonate powder.  And what treats do you recommend that are not empty calories?  I already feed yogurt, avocado, chicken, dry papaya, sunflower seeds.  I will cut out the dry roasted mealies.  Any good foods that I am not thinking of?

Thanks for listening and for the comments.  I needed to sort thru this "out loud".

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Bobbie    


Mom to 2 humans, wife to 1, -- and "mom" to 1 dog, 2 horses,
and 9 of the sweetest gliders!

http://highglass.wix.com/highglassgliders#

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:16 pm

I did talk to Dr. G's office today. I would like to work out how to get what we need with Heather, as she is trying to get more knowledgeable and experienced with gliders. Her heart is in it. But I will go elsewhere if we can't find a way.

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Bobbie    


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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:10 am

As long as you are feeding a variety of FRESH fruit and veggies you really don't need to keep tabs on the calcium/phosphorus ratio. That is what drives people insane. A good variety of fresh stuff and a good staple like VGV then you should be ok. Dried fruit is good as a treat but not as a daily intake.
Dr. G usually knocks my gliders out and uses a regular x-ray machine. He also is able to get a small amount of blood to do blood work. He is worth the visit for you. I know Val use to drive all the way from Mt.Cleamons to see him when she had sick gliders.
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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:59 am

@bjve wrote:

I think that I have been too lax in monitoring my gliders diet.  I feed VGV, and they love it.  I follow the instructions and feed my base veggies along with the "varying fruit/veggies of the day".  I vary the staple with each batch, but after looking at all the ingredients & the veggies/fruit I feed, and their calcium:phos ratios, I should have been using calcium powder in all batches that Luna had while nursing the triplets.  I was supplementing her, but with the wrong things.  I have calcium powder - is there a recommended amount for supplementing in a case where the deficiency is showing itself?  She has the symptoms....they match what I found online.  

So....how much calcium do I use to help build Luna's levels back to normal?  I would add it to the staple, in a 16 oz bottle.  I have Calcium Carbonate powder.  And what treats do you recommend that are not empty calories?  I already feed yogurt, avocado, chicken, dry papaya, sunflower seeds.  I will cut out the dry roasted mealies.  Any good foods that I am not thinking of?

This is something that tends to get misunderstood with VGV. NONE of the "alternate" ingredients should be used in every batch. Therefore, you should NOT use the calcium in every batch, even with nursing mothers.

That being said, the amount of calcium that should be added when using it is listed in the recipe. (1 teaspoon).

Please don't be the person that diagnoses your glider based upon symptoms you found online. Get the TESTS run before you begin treatment for anything. A calcium deficiency will show in blood work and if it is sufficient to be causing issues with bones and/or organs, you will see that upon x-ray. If neither of these show a calcium deficiency, then you know to look for another cause for the symptoms. It is so important with gliders that we KNOW what we are treating before we begin treatment. Otherwise, we often do more harm than good (trust me, I see this so often with deceased gliders sent here for necropsy). Also, remember that calcium deficiency will have an underlying cause - i.e. bacterial or parasitic infection. Therefore, a dietary change alone likely won't address the real issue. Test first, treat second.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:32 am

Ugh....I feel ignorant. I do change the combination of staple ingredients in each batch, and they get a good assortment of veggies/fruit each night. I really do know that I can't self-diagnose. I just want to do something while waiting. We are going to x-ray using the regular machine at the vet office. And we will take some blood and at least do a smear. If that isn't enough, I'll go see Dr. G. I like him - he did my first glider's neuter.

In the meantime - I have moved the pouch out and they have the tent on the floor of the cage. I already notice that Luna is out eating more now that food is right outside the tent door. I am picking up avocado tonight to make glider crack for her morning food supplement. This morning she had yogurt.

I will give Heather Dr. Walsh's number to call in case she wants to talk to him about what she finds. She has called his office in the past, when she did her first neuter. Anything I should suggest to Heather as she does and looks at these tests?

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Bobbie    


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and 9 of the sweetest gliders!

http://highglass.wix.com/highglassgliders#

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:13 am

Just an update.  Luna had an x-ray done today.  Heather also had Zeke get an x-ray so that she had a comparison.  She definitely has low bone density due to calcium loss.  She also has a fracture in her right back leg.  Fortunately, it is the fibula, which is not the main weight bearing bone.  

Heather is going to research how much calcium she should have daily and come up with a plan to supplement her with what she needs.  It is naturally in the diet, but she is still concerned that she get enough.  If anyone has specifically supplemented calcium, please let me know what/how so that I can pass that on to Heather.  Luna has gained a little weight - is at 62g.  Zeke is a nice big boy at 115g.

I have already moved everything to the bottom of their cage to discourage Luna from climbing.  I have seen her climbing a bit, but not lots.  I have both a standing tent and pouch on the cage floor, and their food dish right there so that she can eat and rest easily.  If anyone has other suggestions, please let me know.

Right now we have been out of power since Sunday, so I am letting Luna and Zeke sleep at the vet office until after work.  It is much warmer there!  The gliders have handled the cold well - still out playing, eating well, getting treats.  And they have cage covers and lots of blankets in their pouches to help them with their warm cuddling.  I am praying that our power comes back today.  The estimated restoration time is tomorrow at 8pm.

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Bobbie    


Mom to 2 humans, wife to 1, -- and "mom" to 1 dog, 2 horses,
and 9 of the sweetest gliders!

http://highglass.wix.com/highglassgliders#

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Tue Nov 19, 2013 4:15 pm

I just picked up Luna and Zeke. We are also treating Luna with Clavamox just in case. The x-ray clearly shows the low bone density - Luna is on the left, Zeke on the right. You can also see the break in the back right lower leg. I took pics of the x-rays, which I will include here.


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Bobbie    


Mom to 2 humans, wife to 1, -- and "mom" to 1 dog, 2 horses,
and 9 of the sweetest gliders!

http://highglass.wix.com/highglassgliders#

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:05 pm

Bobbie
I would follow the broken bone rehab instructions here for her. http://thesweetspot.forumotion.net/t6-broken-leg-after-care-and-rehabilitation-instructions
Wishing her the best!

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~*~ Val ~*~
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We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:44 pm

I will do that - thanks, Val!

I do have a couple questions, as I am concerned about separating Luna and Zeke for such a long time.  I realize that they are newbie questions, and I may be worrying too much (what a surprise, right???), but I would rather ask dumb questions than worry.   So....

1.  Luna and Zeke are very bonded & I am concerned about them each being alone for such a long time.  If I hospitalize Zeke with her, she's not getting as much rest, & he ends up bored as well.  And I can't let them have "play time" as Luna is not supposed to play.  Ideas on how to make them not so lonely and/or depressed?

2.   It was suggested to me that due to the low bone density, I might need to leave Luna alone for 4-6 weeks, maybe longer.  That's a long time.  Will she and Zeke be ok when re-introduced after that length of time?  

Maybe I just need reassurance.  My vet is not sure of how much calcium to supplement with.  I am supposed to contact her with the info on my calcium powder that I use in the VGV staple & see if she wants me to add a specific additional amount of that.  The rehab directions specify liquid calcium.  I will request that, but she will still be looking into how much.  What have other folks done?

We are still out of power...we are on night #4 tonight.  I will start all this after we have heat.  Right now we ALL need to be sleeping together to keep warm!

Thanks everyone!

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Bobbie    


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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:07 pm

On the topic of separating, I have separated gliders for even as long as a month or so and have always had no problem putting them back together. They have been perfectly fine, although I would let them visit or at least see each other now and then.
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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:58 am

I am just suggesting this and you may want to get more opinions but why not keep them together to sleep during the day and then let Zeke in a different cage for a few hours at night to play??

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:38 am

That sounds like a good plan. I can let them be together in her temp home during the day to sleep, and then let Zeke play in his cage at night.

Now - liquid calcium. We are not sure how much to supplement along with the VGV staple. Anyone used it before?

Thanks for the help - you are all great!

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Bobbie    


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and 9 of the sweetest gliders!

http://highglass.wix.com/highglassgliders#

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:50 am

Rather then guessing at this why not have her give Dr. Walsh a call and get a good plan going? He knows what Val's diet is and can give a better evaluation of how to treat this then we can.

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:20 am

Of course, many, many people have used the liquid calcium before, Bobbie. I keep a pint of it here because I use it on rescues a lot. This situation is not unusual or a first, so no need for worrying so much. This is the very reason we put this information out here on TSS. It is based upon experience, so you can always assume that others have done so before you.

Why not have Heather call Dr. Walsh? Truthfully, had she done so many days ago, you would already be on your way to healing here. The consultation numbers are given for a reason. Have her call him and get this going so you don't loose another day of treatment.
Since this is a short term issue and there is a deficiency, you don't have to worry about giving too much unless you just WAY over do it. You won't be giving this for forever. We are not vets, so posting a dosage would be irresponsible.

The sooner, the better.

And, stop worrying about Zeke so much. I'm quite sure that he would rather be with Luna in a smaller enclosure than alone. Gliders are quite resilient. Remember, this is a TEMPORARY thing. So, let him have some play time in your tent or play area and then let him stay with his lady love. The most stressful thing we do to gliders is separate them from their cage mates. Trust me (as one with a lot of experience in the area), gliders can be very happy in smaller cages if they are with their cage mates and given enrichment. So, give a toy box and some floor toys and they will be fine.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

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PostSubject: Re: Need advice, please!!!   Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:23 am

Thanks, Val. I will try to stop worrying. Heather has called Dr. Walsh's office before, altho she talked to his colleague rather than him. That was back when she did her first neuter. I will suggest that she call again to get dosage info.


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