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 Copying Questions for Vendors

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PostSubject: Copying Questions for Vendors   Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:10 pm

(Val please feel free to move this - it is in response to your start of the copycat thread, but I want to get feedback from other vendors in the community as to what we should feel is acceptable)

Something_To_Believe_In wrote:
It seems that more and more lately we are seeing people copying others and their products. I'm not sure why this has become even more prominent lately, but I know that it has come up a LOT lately.

Here is why it matters - this community is not infinite, so for vendors we don't make an unlimited number of sales. We work hard to come up with unique ideas and products so that we can each have our own niche and YOU can have a wide variety of safe and engaging products to choose from. So, when we come up with something new and unique, we count on being able to sell that toy to you all and to be the only one you are buying it from.

Additionally, in a community this small, there is no need to copy from anyone else. It IS possible for two people to come up with similar ideas, but the "rule of thumb" in this community has always been that the first one tot he boards with the product has claim to the product. This helps eliminate confusion and sets a standard so that we all know what to expect. I am starting to wonder if we are moving toward a more "free-for-all" type of vending.
*I* am not. I have decided that when someone copies even ONE product, I will never again buy ANYTHING from them.


So my questions are:

Is it OK for someone to copy for themselves/their gliders?

Is it OK for someone to copy for a gift exchange or trade? Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not?

Is it OK for someone to copy items to give to a rescue? Should they have permission of the original creator first? Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not?

Is it OK for someone to copy items to use a fundraiser for a rescue(i.e. not for personal profit)? Again, should they have permission of the original creator first?

And lastly, the one we ultimately have very little control of - Is it OK to sell outside of the community, either in other online groups, ebay, etc.?

When giving permission to someone for any reason, what criteria are there? My biggest concern would be safety of the products. Does giving permission in one instance usually end up snowballing into the free-for-all Val speaks of?

I'd love the input of respected vendors in the community on this matter. Is the only "recourse" to make a public post about it and hope it reaches enough people to make a difference?
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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:58 pm

Well, I'll give my 2 cents on the matter.

For me, character matters. We have so many vendors in this community now that we all have many choices when deciding to purchase cage items, toys, sleeping spaces, etc. I, personally, am so sick of the weakening overall character and integrity I see in this community as so many make excuses and change standards to fit their own desires, so I am picky about who I will and won't buy from. I won't knowingly give my money to someone who copies items or who demonstrates poor character or integrity throughout their glider journey. That is my personal choice.
My answers below are based upon that.

Quote :
So my questions are:

Is it OK for someone to copy for themselves/their gliders? Yes. So long as no profit is being made, it is fine to use another person's idea for your own gliders.

Is it OK for someone to copy for a gift exchange or trade? No. You know what you have made for yourself and in your own home. Once you give a copied item away, there is risk that any "issues" with the item will be attributed to the original creator of the product. Keep your copies for yourself.
Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not? No.

Is it OK for someone to copy items to give to a rescue? No. This is a very sensitive subject for me, but NO. Rescues deserve to get donations for all of their/our hard work, yes. But again, for the reason listed in the last set of questions, copies should not be given out. If the product is that amazing, contact the creator of the product and ask for a donation.
Should they have permission of the original creator first? This doesn't really apply if you don't believe it is appropriate. But, if permission IS given, then....well, permission has been given. Otherwise, it is not right to copy and give away or sell another person's creation. That is not the respect that we have for each other in this community. Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not? No.

Is it OK for someone to copy items to use a fundraiser for a rescue(i.e. not for personal profit)? No.
Again, should they have permission of the original creator first? You should always have permission before copying an item for profit of any kind. Period. Otherwise, you are just a copy-cat. If you really want to help a rescue, donate original items. Donating a copy to a rescue fundraiser does not make you a saint. It makes you a copy-cat trying to hide your dirty deed with a generous act. No reputable rescue wants to have their hands made dirty with this type of behavior. Just donate money, time or original items. The rescues don't need any more drama than we already have to deal with every day.

And lastly, the one we ultimately have very little control of - Is it OK to sell outside of the community, either in other online groups, ebay, etc.? A copy is a copy is a copy. If someone does this, they will still loose my respect and will not ever have my business or that of those who adopt from me. Again, this is an issue of character. It doesn't really matter where you vend your copies or your unsafe products. If you are a person of such poor character, then it will spill over into all of your business practices and, frankly, I won't want to have much to do with you. Character matters. I can't say it enough.

When giving permission to someone for any reason, what criteria are there? I would only ever give permission to someone to use for themselves in their home. That's it. My biggest concern would be safety of the products. Does giving permission in one instance usually end up snowballing into the free-for-all Val speaks of? For many people, yes.

I'd love the input of respected vendors in the community on this matter. Is the only "recourse" to make a public post about it and hope it reaches enough people to make a difference?
Unfortunately, yes that is pretty much it. That is why these beware forums exist. Of course, you know that there will be talk in personal groups throughout the community and that will either further injure or improve a person's reputation. It does go both ways. But, there are no laws against being a copy-cat. This is a matter of respect and character, not of the law. So, your "recourse" remains only within this community. Unfortunately.

The community has a right to know who is copying and what products to look twice at to make sure they are getting the "real deal." We all also have a right to know who amongst us has this level of integrity. After all, a person who has so little respect for other vendors will likely have some other issues in the community in the time they stick around. I know that many breeders wouldn't want their gliders going to this type of person, etc. Most of the time, people don't realize how this type of behavior will impact many other parts of their lives. Just be a person of character and integrity and you won't have to worry about it.

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~*~ Val ~*~
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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:33 pm

Is it OK for someone to copy for themselves/their gliders? yes as long as it stay in h your home and used for your gliders
Is it OK for someone to copy for a gift exchange or trade? No. It is no longer being use by use and your gliders.
Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not? If the person you copies is selling the item for a profit then no you should not copy the item. They may not be a vendor in the glider community as we know it but could be selling outside the community.

Is it OK for someone to copy items to give to a rescue? As long as you are giving it to the rescue and not making a profit off it.
Should they have permission of the original creator first? If you can get hold of the orginal creator or they are still around then I would ask for permission


Is it OK for someone to copy items to use a fundraiser for a rescue(i.e. not for personal profit)? still someone is making off of it so I would not.Again, should they have permission of the original creator first?

And lastly, the one we ultimately have very little control of - Is it OK to sell outside of the community, either in other online groups, ebay, etc.? I would not do it as you still might run into the person that is the original creator of the item.


When giving permission to someone for any reason, what criteria are there? My biggest concern would be safety of the products. Does giving permission in one instance usually end up snowballing into the free-for-all Val speaks of? The only time I would give permission to someone to copy my stuff would be if I was no longer making and selling the item. Then it would have to be someone that I have seen their work and know they would reproduce the item with the same quality I did.
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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:17 am

So many differing colors makes this whole thread hard to read.
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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:35 am

sherri wrote:
So many differing colors makes this whole thread hard to read.

You can highlight it and it will all become one color

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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:28 pm

Here are my thoughts on this:

Is it OK for someone to copy for themselves/their gliders?
**Yes-it's not for profit, and no one else will see it but you.

Is it OK for someone to copy for a gift exchange or trade? Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not?
**No-it might not be for profit, but you are sending it out into the community. It doesn't matter if the person is a vendor or not.

Is it OK for someone to copy items to give to a rescue? Should they have permission of the original creator first? Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not?
**Again...no. If you want to make the item for a rescue, ask the originator for permission. Vendor or not doesn't matter.

Is it OK for someone to copy items to use a fundraiser for a rescue(i.e. not for personal profit)? Again, should they have permission of the original creator first?
**Same thing....not unless you have permission.

And lastly, the one we ultimately have very little control of - Is it OK to sell outside of the community, either in other online groups, ebay, etc.?
**I think we all live outside the community as well as in...they are connected. I think the answers above apply regardless of whether you sell/donate on the forums or on eBay.

When giving permission to someone for any reason, what criteria are there? My biggest concern would be safety of the products. Does giving permission in one instance usually end up snowballing into the free-for-all Val speaks of?
**I think that credit should be given when copying an item so that the buyer knows it is not the original. If the workmanship is inferior, it is clear whose workmanship it is.

There it is....my two cents :-)

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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:40 pm

Quote :
Is it OK for someone to copy for themselves/their gliders?

Is it OK for someone to copy for a gift exchange or trade? Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not?

Is it OK for someone to copy items to give to a rescue? Should they have permission of the original creator first? Does it matter if the person who copies is a vendor or not?
Yes I feel if it only for yourself this is fine.

Quote :
Is it OK for someone to copy items to use a fundraiser for a rescue(i.e. not for personal profit)? Again, should they have permission of the original creator first?
If you are going to do this I would ask the originator of the product first.

Quote :
And lastly, the one we ultimately have very little control of - Is it OK to sell outside of the community, either in other online groups, ebay, etc.?
I feel it is OK to sell your original products, not a copy of someone else's outside the community.

Quote :
When giving permission to someone for any reason, what criteria are there?
My biggest concern would be the safety of the product.

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Brenda
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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:37 pm

I think copying something that you use for yourself is okay. But, copying for any kind of profit, weather it be your profit or someone else's (rescue, raffle, whatever) is wrong. It doesn't matter of someone is part of this community or another, you're cutting into someone's paycheck.

If you have the permission of that person, it is another story and you should stay within the permissions given. We have to be honest with out work, always.

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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:08 am

If you are making it for yourself that's fine as long as it is going to stay in your home.

If you are copying it for any other purpose then no it's not fine.

A long long long time ago, back when I first opened my store I took part in a gift exchange on another forum. A "good" customer of mine bought one of my toys and then copied and sent the copy to someone in a gift exchange. She never asked me if it was ok. (It wasn't! ) The person who got the gift though I made it. I don't know how well it was made, if it was up to MY standard or if the parts that were used were of the quality that I use. But there was this toy out there that looked like the toy I made. If it fell to bits in a week, it would be me that people would think made crappy toys.





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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:45 pm


I really feel no need to over speak since I think the ladies here pretty much are spot on so...my view is:
Copying for yourself, fine.
Other than that....no...unless you get direct permission.


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PostSubject: Re: Copying Questions for Vendors   Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:22 pm

BindiAndScrubbie wrote:

I really feel no need to over speak since I think the ladies here pretty much are spot on so...my view is:
Copying for yourself, fine.
Other than that....no...unless you get direct permission.



Couldn't agree more.
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