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srlb

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PostSubject: Diet Study Isses   Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:12 am

I have a question for you and TGI...

What ever happened with that diet study you guys were working on? Have you gotten anywhere with it at all? How many vets did you guys finally wind up getting involved with it? Are you going to be able to share some of that info with Val possibly for the gathering in Feb??

I have been waiting and waiting since the preliminary results were supposed to be in by Oct. There has been plenty enough time now to do another round of blood work ups to see what the numbers are now and if any of them have changed.

Just curious and wanted to ask someone I knew wouldnt take the questions in the wrong manner!!
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srlb

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:55 pm

Hmmm...all these views, not one reply and knowing that Karen was on and answered other posts since I posted this???

How is one able to trust an association and support it if they cant even get a simple reply to a question that their group started such as this one?

I mean come on, if you dont have an answer, give me and everyone else the courtesy of saying, you know I havent heard anything about it, so I cant answer, but being the president and my name being labeled to this, I will check into it for you...
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Something_To_Believe_In
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:23 pm

Perhaps Karen has gone to get that information - or just got busy - or doesn't want to speak without having all her ducks in a row, or wants TGI's PR representative to be the one to speak for TGI. I know that I often will read something directed at me or the SUGAR group and then give myself time to think about it and get my information organized before I respond. Sometimes, this takes me a day or two. ESP. if I am speaking for the SUGAR group or if I feel I need to consult my team before responding. Just playing Devil's advocate here.

I'm hoping we will have an answer soon.

I know that you are not the only one wondering what ever happened with this project.
It would be nice to know either way. Exciting if there were any results to speak of (and Yes, I would love to share them in Feb.), but not the first time that an idea never took off in this community if there was no conclusion to the project.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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Critter Hill
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:16 am

I have to agree. I at times look at posts and don't answer. Sometimes I have time to just read and not to post. I even come back to the board and it will show me as visiting, doesn't mean I actually had time to do more than come to the board though. Life gets in the way of my browsing!

I am sure she will be back to answer your question when she has time to properly devote to it.
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sugeebaby
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:47 pm

I have been MIA from the computer world for a few.
We are working on writing a grant to get the diet study going. The original one that BLG was working on stopped since there was no one willing or able to get blood work for their gliders.
This is still a very important issue for TGI and we are working on it. TGI will keep you all posted as soon as we have more inf but we will not drop this issue.
Sorry Peggy, but I turn the computer off at 7 and have not been on the boards lately. Too much drama around for me. I am sorry I have not answered this before now. Also our PR person normally answers all TGI questions and I don't think she is registered over here yet.
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srlb

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:10 pm

Thank you for the response Karen. I thought BLG said they had all their blood work done and collected?? It wasnt too long ago that Anita Tucker asked her about it...I will have to go ask Anita about it.

So what steps exactly are you trying to do Karen?I think it is a good thing to do and would like to see someone able to do it.But I would also like for whoever is doing it, to keep the community informed about it.
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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:32 am

I thought I heard my name being called. Yes, when I pulled out of the diet study back in September, BLG said it was OK, because she had a waiting list to take my place. From her statements I thought she had people waiting in line to do this and that all the blood work would be finished somewhere around the end of October.

When I asked about the results in November, BLG said “Keep watching”. That led a lot of people to believe that the blood work had been done and we would see results soon.

I would love to see something like this done professionally and scientifically. Not only do we not know what gliders need, we don’t even know the chemical make up of what is in the food that they eat naturally.

I see a lot of new diets springing up; most of them usually claiming to have done months of research. That research is usually nothing more that people, with no dietary or medical background looking stuff up on the internet. And I can’t tell someone what to feed their pets but if someone actually did any more than that, they would have documented that research and be willing to share it.

I worry because we seem to be judging what a glider should eat by human standards. Let’s just take one component of that. Leafy green veggies. Ok, we all know that they are good for us and that we should probably eat more, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that leafy greens are good for gliders. I have never seen any record stating that gliders eat leaves in the wild. And what about the fiber? Even if you run those leaves through a blender the fiber still enters the gliders system and we don’t know the long term effects of a glider consuming high fiber foods. We would not attempt to feed humming birds high fiber foods because we know that their system could not handle it. The same is true in reverse. Many animals are designed to digest bones. Those that are not, should not be fed bones. Maybe a glider could handle it, but maybe they can’t. We just don’t know. And that is just one of the unknown components of how we feed sugar gliders.

So yeah a good diet study would be a great thing. But I think it is about more than just c/p ratios.
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Chris R

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:55 am

I know that when I talked to Laurie Gage DVM (I worked with her at Marine World) a few years ago, she had studied sugar gliders feeding in the wild and broke those down (protein and what type of sugars etc) in her book (Hand-rearing wild and domestic mammals by Laurie Gage)...She observed gliders eating euc leaves that had been attacked by various insects (the insects leave saliva which changes the makeup somewhat, basically simplifying the sugars in the leaves)...My lengthy discussion with her on vitamins with "gut load" vs "skin load" is why, when I fed BML, I altered the recipe to take out the reptile vitamins ie a "skin load animal" and added Pricillas vitamins instead because they are made for a "gut load" (specifically a glider) needs or at least our understanding of what their needs are with as little research that has been done....
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USMom
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:38 am

*runs to Amazon to find the book.
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Chris R

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:46 am

Ohhhh never thought of amazon!...If you find it let me know!...I bet its a bit pricey...all of her stuff is..gotta pay for those research trips LOL

I dont know alot about diet that is why I rely on Laurie whenever I get a baby orphan I havent raised before...but Laurie is AMAZING at researching wild for dietary needs in captive...When I worked at Marine World...because of her intensive research etc we were able to successfully raise the first rejected captive born Springhaas where all others had failed
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sugeebaby
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:23 pm

In the end it was just me in the study. So I stopped taking notes. TGI is serious about doing a professional full blow study in labs. First we must work on the grant. We will keep everyone poted but this is not a quick easy thing. It will take time.
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USMom
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:00 pm

OMG! It's more expensive used than it is new!

Hand-Rearing Wild and Domestic Mammals by Laurie J. Gage (Hardcover - Jul 15, 2002)
Buy new: $79.99
9 new from $75.997 used from $91.62
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BabyLoveGliders



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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:33 am

Hey guys!!
Yep.. for one reason or another... like ..1 found their glider was very low in calcium and her vet recommended more aggressive treatment asap so, she had to pull out, then it was about money for another few, it was about TGI being involved for a couple, then it was this, then it was that.... and to be honest by Dec, I was VERY frustrated and did not ask for other volunteers. Kinda sux too.... we had such a great response from the community at first.... but anyway.. that is that now.... So, we will just have to wait for TGI and their grant to move on.

I however, will not be apart of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:31 am

I just want to thank both Karen and Kris for giving an answer.

I also want to state that I have personally talked with Karen, as an official TGI representative, about their diet study. I, too, think that it will be a great thing.

There has been some speculation that the SUGAR group will feel our toes are stepped on if TGI were to get a grant for a diet study. So, I want to clear that up.

NO, we will not take offense. The kind of study that TGI proposes would involve live test subjects in a laboratory environment. The SUGAR group has, as one of our bylaws and as my personal conviction, a provision that we will not participate in any live study in a laboratory environment.

Additionally, TGI and the SUGAR group see an opportunity to work hand-in-hand on projects such as this and will be discussing this with our teams. TGI has offered to share the results of their study with the SUGAR group as well as the community. The SUGAR group has offered some advice for helping them get a grant approved. The SUGAR group has offered to share our educational materials directed at vets with TGI. There is no bad blood here and we are not offended at this plan of TGI's.

Both TGI and the SUGAR group have a lot to discuss with our teams concerning this matter, but I want to put to rest any rumors that TGI is trying to one-up the SUGAR group or that the SUGAR group is offended by the prospect of this study. We wish TGI the best of luck and look forward to using their results in our research.

-----------♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥-----------
~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

My favorite color is orange - I'm the normal one.
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BabyLoveGliders



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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:37 am

That is so wonderful to hear!! Our gliders and community truly need this!
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:42 am

Oh and Anita.. contact both the Taronga Zoo and Healesville, they will send you all the wonderful and new documents of feeding leafy greens.. it's some amazing stuff. They have both gone in that direction for their captive gliders.
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pennysmom

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:00 am

Great news!!!
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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:59 am

BabyLoveGliders wrote:
Oh and Anita.. contact both the Taronga Zoo and Healesville, they will send you all the wonderful and new documents of feeding leafy greens.. it's some amazing stuff. They have both gone in that direction for their captive gliders.


Well my name has been called twice in one post. I feel honored. NOT!

Why would I need to contact either of them? I'm not sitting at my kitchen table with a computer and a calculator trying to formulate a diet that everyone should follow. I am neither a dietitian nor am I in the medical profession so i am not qualified to do that kind of work.

And my point is that before people publish the finished diet, they should do some real research and be willing to publish the research, and they should have a background that qualifies them to understand what they are trying to do. That way we might back away from the vague statements of authenticity and and see some real results. If you have already done that, then you should share it. So contact away if that is what knocks your socks off.

My post was general and the leafy veggie was an example of unknown things. Nothing more and nothing less.
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BabyLoveGliders



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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:15 am

Taronga Zoo and Healesville do "have a background that qualifies them to understand what they are trying to do."
That was why I referred you to them as leafy greens are not "unknown things".
Many people including myself have used their expertise and scientific research for feeding our gliders a better diet here in the states.

But no worries, I got your sentiment.
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:29 am

No actually I don't think that you did get my sentiment. If you had, you would be actually showing your research.
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BabyLoveGliders



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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:47 am

See I did understand..I feel that everyone should go to the actual source and speak with the nutritional scientist who will readily share their research and findings. Really no biggie, if you dont want to contact them dont, I was just trying to share the knowledge that there are such "qualified" people out there that can show that leafy greens are not unknown.

Like my original post said..

contact both the Taronga Zoo and Healesville, they will send you all the wonderful and new documents of feeding leafy greens.. it's some amazing stuff. They have both gone in that direction for their captive gliders.
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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:51 am

No actually I don't think that you did get my sentiment. If you had, you would be actually showing your research.

Afterall, it is your diet that you are promoting.
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BabyLoveGliders



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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:21 pm

Anita, I'm sorry you are having a hard time understanding me.

My diet is based directly on these people's scientific findings. You should not get their information from me. I strongly feel that we as a community have followed others much too blindly and let's face it, something coming from "BLG" is not weighed the same as coming from nutritional scientist in Australia. Everyone should go to the actual source and speak with them, who will readily share their research and findings with you. I have my diet published for 1 reason. Many glider owners want a more natural and organic ; clean diet to feed. Those that do trust in the simple numbers and nutritional balance that are available have a good solid starting point.
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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:31 pm

I think I understand what you are telling me. I think you are telling me that you did no research.

The funny thing is that you are not understanding me. So let me be clearer and to the point.

Did YOU do any research before promoting a diet that YOU formulated and put out for others to follow? If so will YOU post that information? It could be a very good diet, or it might not be. But without YOUR research, how will we know.
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BabyLoveGliders



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PostSubject: Re: Diet Study Isses   Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:38 pm

Anita, I will not allow you to take me there and engage in a personal attack. I have given you the source to contact that will readily send you the scientific data you are requesting. I am sorry we are unable to communicate about this.
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