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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Lilly's Leg   Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:53 pm



Has anyone ever seen anything like this? This has been going on for about a week and it isn't getting any better. We have Lilly on antibiotics and pain meds but it isn't getting better. We did exrays which didn't show anything...the bone and everything looks good. The Vet tryed to remove fluid. Fluid is thick and slimey so she thinks it might be joint fluid instead of an infection. I am thinking about taking her to a different Vet tomorrow to see if I can find any answers. If anyone has seen anthing like this, please let me know.

I know the picture is not very clear, I will try to get Charlie to help me tonight and see if I can get a better one. There isn't any kind of opening on this so if it is some sort of cyst, it is under the skin. If it was clearer you could see some scabs where the vet drew out the fluids but no other type opening.
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:59 pm

Actually, there IS one member here that has something similar going on with the foot of one of their gliders. It is so strange that this is popping up all at the same time. Both treated with antibiotics and not making progress. I find both cases very interesting.

I know that both of my gliders who have had osteomyelitis had a great deal of swelling with no abscess/pocket of pus. So, you might ask if osteomyelitis is a possibility given the x-ray. Maybe with a second look, the vet might see some hints of osteomyelitis.

If you do go to the second vet, PLEASE let us know what you find out.

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:30 pm

I have the glider with the foot. He has been on antibiotics for a week now and we are trying a second one to see if there is any change. It has not changed other then it has a crack type appearance to it. I am applying Quick Derm to it also. He is not effected by this thing at all. He has not bothered it at all. When it is touched he does not get upset and when they aspirated it with a needle three time to see what they could find under the microscope he was great.

Val can you add the photo I sent you as I do not have it handy right now. I will get another photo in the next day or so.

Next step is to clean it out and see what that shows us.

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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:31 pm




Hmmmm, this picture isn't much better. I'm not sure what is going on with my camera.

Brenda, I'm sorry your little one is going through this. Let us know how it is going.

Val, osteomyelitus???? Ok, I admit it. I had to look it up. I am for sure going to try to get Lilly in at the vet in Maitland tomorrow. But at least now I have something that I can toss out there for the Vet to think about. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks for the info.

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:44 am

Anita we will be hoping you get an answer with the vet today. Thinking of your little one. I hate not knowing what it is. If things were just cut and dry I would be much happier. I can deal with treatment's just hate looking for answers.

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:49 am

Here is a thread on osteomyelitis here on TSS:
http://thesweetspot.forumotion.net/t1666-osteomyelitis

Brenda, I'm working on getting your picture up. I don't really know how to forward from my text messages.

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~*~ Val ~*~
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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:02 am

Thanks Val, I copied that info and I will take it with me today. I have an apointment over in the Orlando area at 11:00 so I willl leave here in about an hour. I will let you know what they say sometime this afternoon. Probably late afternoon.
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:08 am

I figured out the phone thing. Here are Brenda's pics:



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~*~ Val ~*~
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:46 pm

is it possible that its an allergic reaction to something in the enviroment? have you added any new items to the cage?
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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:25 pm

Thanks for the suggestion FutureChef, but there isn't anything new that I can think of.

So this is going to be a hard one. New ex rays showed a different story. Vet took two. One of the good leg and one of the swollen leg. The bad leg has a bone that is pretty much deteriorated. I'm not sure why that didn't show in the ex ray we had done last Monday; maybe a different angle?

Next the fluid. Again, the Vet remarked that this fluid is thick and looks a lot more like joint fluid than an infection. I saw it last Monday and it kind of reminds me of the stuff that oozes out of an Aloe plant when you cut it. It is clear, thick and kind of sticky/slimy.

The Vet said that she is very worried about possible cancer or cyst... probably somewhere around the hock (her word, not mine).

She prepared slides and sent them for a Cytology. Hopefully that will let us know if it is cancer. She also sent samples for culture and sensitivity. That should tell us if we are dealing with an infection. I'm not as medically minded as some of you so if any of that doesn't sound right, you can let me know. She said that we should have some answers by next Thursday.

I asked about calcium and she said “Not at this time”. The reason is that some cancers can somehow react with calcium. And with the ex ray of the good leg looking good, the deterioration of the bone is more than likely related to what is going on inside the leg.

For right now the worry is that if Lilly falls, she could fracture that weak leg, so I am putting her in a smaller cage where she can be more protected. She is also to continue the antibiotic and pain meds until we get some answers...or maybe indefinitely.

OK, here is the hard part. Lilly is 12. If she needs an amputation or any major surgery, I am going to have to say NO. The Vet agrees with that. I really hate to put down a glider that so far seems to be living a somewhat normal life. She seems to eat, poop, move normally. So as long as I feel she has some quality of life and not riddled with pain, I will do what I can for her. I think when the time comes, I will know it.


Last edited by Anita Rae on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:31 pm

I think you will know it too, Anita.

Did you mention the osteomyelitis? I say this because one of the symptoms of osteomyelitis is that it eats away (deteriorates) the bone.

Also, just want to throw out there that abscesses in gliders are often full of a thick, slimey, goopy material that does not look a lot like the pus that you expect in an abscess, but it is abscess nonetheless. So, I'm going to hope that for your little one. If it is an abscess, the antibiotics will help.

I have personally never seen the synovial (joint) fluid of a glider, so I don't know what that looks like.

For those that like the gross pictures/find them interesting, I will post some of the stuff we have taken out of abscesses in the past. If you don't like that sort of thing, skip looking at my next post.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

My favorite color is orange - I'm the normal one.


Last edited by Something_To_Believe_In on Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:33 pm




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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:43 pm

Yes, we absolutely did discuss the osteomyelitis and that has still not been ruled out. If it is a bone infection, it should show up on the C&S, right?

I just hope we can get some definitive answers.

TY for all you have done.
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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:27 pm

Val! Can you tell Charlie to stop correcting my spelling?!? I guess I've misspelled xray 3 times. exray, ex ray, xray???? I'm trying really hard to get this right for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:00 pm

I will keep good thought for Lilly. Did they say how long it would before they had the test results in.

Here is a photo of Macks foot today.


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Brenda
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:33 pm

Quote :
She said that we should have some answers by next Thursday.
So, about a week of worry and wondering what it is.

Quote :
Yes, we absolutely did discuss the osteomyelitis and that has still not been ruled out. If it is a bone infection, it should show up on the C&S, right?
I don't think so, but I could be wrong. My understanding is that a piece of the bone has to be sent in for testing if the vet can't rule it out/diagnose it some other way. I have personally never sent any part of bone in for my two that had it, but with Dr. Walsh's new digital radiograph system, he is able to see things that we did not see before.

I am actually encouraged that you got some fluid/goop (that is a technical term, LOL) out of it because it would lead me to believe that there is an active infection that is NOT osteomyelitis. Neither of my babies who had it had any fluid to drain/excise. It was just swollen tissue.

Either way, the antibiotic will continue to work throughout this week of waiting.

Quote :
I guess I've misspelled xray 3 times. exray, ex ray, xray???? I'm trying really hard to get this right for you.
LOL. You could always say radiograph instead. That is more technical and will make you sound super smart.

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~*~ Val ~*~
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We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:33 pm

I have a question, on any of these gliders, does that leg seem painful to them? Does it affect them, other than it's swollen?

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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:05 pm

Quote :

I guess I've misspelled xray 3 times. exray, ex ray, xray???? I'm trying really hard to get this right for you.

LOL. You could always say radiograph instead. That is more technical and will make you sound super smart

HaHa, Right....If I can't dazzle them with brilliance; baffle them with...let's not go there.



Quote :
I have a question, on any of these gliders, does that leg seem painful to them? Does it affect them, other than it's swollen?

Actually Lilly uses this leg and foot just like it isn't hurt at all. She has been climbing and running in the wheel as if nothing is wrong. Now that we know about the bone deteriorating, I am removing the wheel. She is on medicam, but it is my understanding that is not only for pain, but also because it is an anti inflammatory.

Brenda, Mack looks so much better. Thanks for sharing that info and I hope he has a full recovery.
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:46 am

Shawna Mack acts like nothing is wrong. I can touch it, apply cream, we even poked it with a needle a couple times and he did nothing. I fully expected to get a nip or bite from him.
He is eating better now that I added a tiny but of Acidulous to his dinner. The meds. decreased his food intake.

Thank you. Anita

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:23 am

I wonder then if this is the typical "act like nothings wrong, so I don't get eaten" kind of behavior we see from wild animals, or if the nerves are deadened somehow. Mostly just thinking out loud, but also wondering on thoughts or knowledge here.

Brenda, when mine were on meds, the activia style yogurt helped. Also, if they stopped eating too much, I gave them some glider crack, everyone eats that.

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Anita Rae

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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:24 pm

I can't believe it. I just got a call from my new Vet and I am kind of impressed. She has already got the results from the cytology.

Ok, I was writing it down as fast as I could so I hope I got it right. There is some evidence of Sarcoma but it is not 100% conclusive. I had to look it up and at this point we might be looking at cancer of the ligament. And that is what she was suspecting when we looked at the xrays.

There wasn't enough evidence to rule out Osteomyelitis. No bacteria or infectious arthritis.

We are going to wait to see what comes back from the cultures which she said should be in by mid week. Then we will decide where to go. One option at that point might be to do a biopsy since things seem to pointing to the cancer.

When I go back over, I should be able to get a written copy so that I can clear up anything that I might have wrote down wrong or misunderstood. I'm sure that it sucks for her to try to make me understand what is going on when I don't know all those medical terms.

As of right now, Lilly isn't any better. Not any worse either.
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:36 am

Anita we will be keeping our fingers crossed for better news, I am glad she is holding her own. Give her a snuggle from me please.


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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:42 pm

Ok, I got a call from the Vet on Saturday about the culture so I scheduled an appointment today.

The culture showed 3 bacteria present.

1. Escherichia Coli (Ecoli) – This was marked as scant so the vet says it might have been there or it might not have been. Baytril will take care of it.
2. Beta Hemolytic Streptococci - Baytril should take care of that too.
3. Methicillin Resisttant Coagulase negative Staph spp. (MRSA)- Baytril won't work on this one. Our only choice is Amikacin or Chloramphenicol. Since we have done the Amikacin before and since the Vet thought it is the best choice, we are trying it. It is injection.

I also got a copy of the Cytology. Now I'm not sure what language this is written in but I know it's not English. I am going to type it out for those of you who might understand it.

MICROSCOPIC DESCRIPTION

The slides submitted exhibit a fairly intensely staining background substance with moderate, acute hemorrhage and scattered macrophages and individually exfoilating, large spindle cells with oval euchromatic nuclei with visible nucleoli and little grey blue cytoplasm. These cells lack sufficient cytologic features of malignancy to diagnose a malignancy based on these slides alone and biopsy is required to differentiate reactive fibrocytic cells form a possible mesenchymal neoplasm/sarcoma. There is a rowing of cells. Such findings are typically noted with synovial fluid in joints from patients with degenerative joint disease and rarely, underlying lesions. No organisms are seen and there is no evidence of an infectious arthritis based on these specimens. Radiology findings warrant aspirates and/or biopsies from the areas of bone lysis to evaluate for neoplasia or osteomyelitis as the cause of bone lysis. There is no evidence osteomyelitis in these slides.



Ok, I saw a different Vet since mine was on vacation. They are still pretty convinced that this is cancer and that the infections are secondary. We are going to give the shots for 2 weeks and hopefully that will reduce some of the swelling. She hasn't been eating as well and she's lost 10grams. She also has some fur missing on the back of her neck. We are going to keep her on the pain meds and put her back in the cage with Poncho and let her live as enjoyable as possible until she shows me that she has had enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:22 pm

So sorry you're going through this, Anita. I don't understand any of that non-English stuff, either, so you're not alone. lol

I'll continue to check back here for updates. Thinking of your little one.
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PostSubject: Re: Lilly's Leg   Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:27 pm

Wishing you some peace of mind. I know how long the days and nights become when you have a sick glider.
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