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 Blended Diet Concerns

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Something_To_Believe_In
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:04 pm

I do want to point out ( and promise to elaborate later ) that weather patterns in fact DO affect breeding, weight, activity level, etc. I'm not at all saying that the weather is the largest factor here, but I, personally, DO feel that it might have some bearing on the severity of the symptoms being seen in the north. I was not being naive or uninformed when I made the initial suggestion/question. I think it is worth exploring the combination of hydrating foods vs. dehydrating foods in the diet in a climate where the weather has been extreme and highly variable like weather has been this year. Additionally, it is worth exploring the effects that too much (or too little) protein can have on the kidneys and any additional strain on the kidneys in a harsh climate. And so on and so on. No one has to agree with me. I'm just stating my opinion based on my own understanding of how animal bodies react, adjust and adapt to weather changes in the wild.

I also want to point out that it is not just breeding gliders affected - this has been said over and over, and still we keep coming back to it. Yes, it only makes sense that breeding/nursing gliders should be fed additional food, and I'm surprised to hear that some were told they did not need to do so.

I know personally of two people who experienced some issues with their non- breeding gliders in the SOUTH. Neither of these people experienced the severity or variety of symptoms we are seeing in the north. I hope that some of these people from the south will share their stories.

In the end, everyone just wants the very best for their babies. Everyone. Discussions of this nature help everyone in the end - in one way or another.


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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:32 pm

I would not be surprised if the weather was a factor in the severity. We have had a very cold winter up here and the humidity has been incredibly low. It could very well play a part in dehydration issues and any symptoms or problems that could be related to dehydration. My gliders' cracked fur and the one's thinning brows seem to have been helped by adding a humidifier and hygrometer and trying to keep the glider room at a comfortable humidity level. I do not feed the blended diet and have not seen any of the other symptoms that others have.
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RandE

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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:14 pm

If it was weather related, why would symptoms get better after switching to a different diet? Nothing has changed temp/ humidity wise in our house in 3 years. Yes, the weather is rather variable here lately, but except for minute atmospheric changes (that happen every year i might add) nothing is out of the ordinary. Honestly, the only real difference here is the amount of snow we've gotten. At least the last three years we've had the same mild/cold/mild/bitter cold fluctuations that we have this year. Why would we suddenly see such dramatic problems now?

We have not had any issues with dehydration here whether they are on the blended or HPW, hydration has been the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:18 pm

Because, Allie, the available nutrients for the body to use to compensate change when the diet changes. So, if you are feeding a diet that makes it harder for the body to adjust to/compensate for atmospheric, barometric and/or weather changes, then you will start to see a physical manifestation of this difficulty. Changing the diet would result in visible/physical changes as well -either better or worse. I'm not saying this is the case, just pointing out that if you are overlooking one variable that is common to those having these issues, then you are not taking a scientific approach to figuring out your problem. If changing diets fixes all of your issues with your gliders, then that is great for you, but it does not help Candy. Candy - and those feeding her diet - are only helped if every variable is explored - especially those very obviously similar in those having this severity of issues.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:28 pm

alright I get it now. :)

Our issues came to a head this winter, but they've been creeping up since late summer/fall. I guess that's why I have a hard time with the environment up here in the "Nort-Woods.' Summer and fall up here is not a whole lot different than anywhere else in the US.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:59 am

Val, you may have a point with weather playing a role. The issues may not be triggered by just one thing but a number of factors happening all at once. Even though it may not seem as if our weather has not changed in years, it really has. The seasons have been getting more extreme ...more rain, more flooding in the spring and summer, winters more extreme as far as weather and fluctuating temps. When was the last time you remember have negative temps in February? I don't know, maybe I just notice it more now because I'm getting old and it hurts more when the weather does this!! LOL!

I changed back to HPW and also keep the humidifier in the glider room on 24/7 now...so maybe the combination is working.... ?

This is probably a stupid question (but don't have time to look it up right now) does anyone have the data for their climate, relative humidity and such? I know we know to keep the temps around 70 - 72 but how about humidity/dew point levels? Looking at the weather may be a moot point if humidity is not an issue for them in their natural habitat.

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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:49 pm

Celeste - were you not using the humidifier while feeding the Blended Diet? or did you begin using the humidifier about the same time as you changed back to HPW?

I'm trying to sort out if you made both changes about the same time an saw improvement or if you tried the humidifier while on the Blended Diet and saw no improvement.

This whole issue has my head spinning because I am so far not seeing any clues to what may need to be done differently for breeding gliders being fed the Blended Diet.

Keep the observations coming folks. I want to look at other vitamins and minerals and compare between various diets but just do not have the time to start a thorough research project right now until this house sells and I can move. Everything is up in the air with the moving process and I make such a mess spreading papers out when I start researching that it just cannot happen while the house must be kept in "showing" condition.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:55 pm

Quote :
When was the last time you remember have negative temps in February?

Actually celeste.... last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. Three years ago, there was a cold snap in Feb. with temps averaging -15 and -45 with the wind chill. I think that stayed for a week. Feb is notorious for arctic cold temps.
Here are the stats for Green Bay this was 2008- the black lines are the daily temps, blue line is average low, red like is average high.
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/stations/grb/grb-tts-2008.gif
2009:
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/stations/grb/grb-tts-2009.gif
2010:
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/stations/grb/grb-tts-2010.gif
2007:
http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/stations/grb/grb-tts-2007.gif

Temps at least have not changed a whole lot this year compared to other years, as you can see in the chart.

Here is the whole website. You can find precipitation charts, temps, pretty much everything climate related for the state of WI.

http://www.aos.wisc.edu/~sco/clim-history/7cities/green_bay.html#Temperature

But I digress,
I do understand the point Val made about weather. Although, not ALL our gliders have been affected the same way. It just depends on the glider. Two cage-mates can look completely different. It seems to be more about the individual. :) That doesn't mean that it is not a factor of some sort.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:36 pm

Allie thanks for the info but you are just a little further north than me :) What I was getting at was the extreme fluctuations in tempurature, humidity, etc...

This is all good thinking from everyone! Candy, I tried the humidifier once and did not notice any change but then I may not have left it on long enough - I fear for the ancient wiring in this farm house and don't like to leave things on when I am not at home. But lately I have just kept my fingers crossed and left the heater and the humidifier on 24/7. The heater switches on and off based upon its thermostate but the humidifier is on all the time now. I've decided to purchase a unit that will measure the conditions in the room such as temp and humidity.

Lets keep brainstorming!
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:53 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:06 pm

CandyOtte wrote:

This whole issue has my head spinning because I am so far not seeing any clues to what may need to be done differently for breeding gliders being fed the Blended Diet.

It is not just breeding gliders that are having problems. Granted, my own non-breeding gliders seem to be doing okay on it, but others have reported problems with their non-breeding gliders as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:29 pm

Those of you that have switched back to HPW, are you using the original recipe or are you substituting apple sauce or something else for honey or water?

If your using the original recipe then you have a lot of honey in the diet, more sugar than what is in the blended diet.

That would increase their activity.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:48 pm

here is my take on the honey situation... I have been doing loads of research because I am currently tryiing to develop my own diet. A Sugar Gliders digestive system is designed to metabolize complex carbohydrates (complex sugars)...their staple diet in the wild is mostly sugar based compounds in a more complex form than what we are used to...Acacia, manna, honeydew and other pollens, flowers and saps... honey is about as close to those as we are going to get without actually using those exact plant bases. Maybe thats why they have more energy - because thats closer to what they are supposed to be eating?

Their main staple, Acacia is an amazing plant carrying many vitamins and nutrients with exceptional amounts of Calcium, potassium and magnesium... I am in the process of working on comparisons between Australian Acacia and Senegal Acacia from Africa which is what is sold in herb stores here.

I don't think honey is a bad thing :)
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:16 pm

same amount of honey in mine. It was not the energy that was most concerning tbh, yes it was concerning, but not the top symptom. Hope I made sense of that. I do not use applesauce etc to replace any honey. Celeste has a good point.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:35 am

To anyone that had issues with the diet:

Out of curiosity, in your colonies (breeding or non-breeding) was there any particular glider or gliders that seemed to maintain weight or wasn't very affected? I'm wondering if some of the gliders could be eating more than their fair share? (I know that would seem to make sense for the breeding females if they weren't getting a sufficient amount).
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:35 pm

We didn't have problems with weight loss. Most or all of our gliders GAINED weight. Some more substantially than others.... we still had issues with joeys. (size, cannibalization, etc)

When switching back to HPW we DID notice that our gliders were VERY hungry. We had a couple cages in particular that couldn't seem to get enough food. They got 1.5 tablespoon per glider of the new HPW [we made] and would eat all their fruits and veggies. I would still give them each about another 9-10 cc's of HPW on top of that. (I was supplementing a joey so I used a 1cc syringe.) Again, these were cages in which I noticed weight gain. Not loss.


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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:44 pm

This may neither be here or now but it might also be a key in this

Back when Candy first came up with her diet calculator I was talking to Dee and she was doing calculations based off of the USDA website values given and was getting different numbers than what Candy's calculator gives for the same items....
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:02 pm

Chris, If you find any specific items where I have transcribed incorrect numbers for please let me know and I will make corrections.

I use NutritionData.com for the values for most foods. Some items are not listed there so I have gone to other web sites for data.

The diet calculator data was entered manually, and that always leaves the possibility for errors.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:39 pm

wrong sign in....again
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:42 pm

Update!

since switching back to HPW. Joey sizes have increased significantly!

Lillie was OOP 2/3 and weights 51 grams. Her full brother Lucky (from litter just before her) was 54 grams at 9 weeks OOP.

Cosmo and Libra had twins OOP 2 days ago, both weighing 14 grams. Their full sisters (from litter before) came OOP at 9 grams a piece.

Coats are looking cleaner and more plush. And the gliders thats tails were thinning are growing back!
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:16 pm

sorry for the dumb question whats OOP stand for?
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:42 pm

Out of pouch
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:42 pm

so when we talk of giving birth OOP is that good or bad?
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:44 pm

OOP is the first day the joey comes off the teat and out of pouch for the first time...It is considered their birthday...when in all actuality they were born around 70 days prior to that
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:24 am

oh wow! i had no idea they stayed in the pouch that long. is that just how long it takes for them to get their sight and strength to move on their own?
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