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Adri



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PostSubject: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:50 pm

In the recent month I have been contacted by several breeders needing help, all these breeders were feeding the Blended Diet. After being on the Blended Diet for 6 months to a year these breeders started noticing poor coat health, reduced activity, loss of weight in adults, very small joeys, parents with no previous history of rejection and or cannibalization all of a sudden started rejecting and and cannibalizing, lactating mothers not having sufficient milk to sustain her joeys. These are all valid accounts and not here say. This is not an attempt to bash a diet but an honest concern for the well being of gliders, mainly those in a breeding environment.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:58 pm

I'm surprised this has not gotten more attention here.

I will say that I have received calls from at least 3 different breeders who were experiencing health issues in their gliders that were quite significant. Each of these three were feeding the blended diet. This is when I began to put this puzzle together.

I know that everyone, Candy included, really loves their gliders and wants the best for them. These sorts of issues are important to discuss and get facts out there. However, this does not mean that this diet is terrible or that Candy did anything wrong. It just means that we need to look at it more closely and see if there is anything that we - together - can do to help with these breeding gliders on this diet.

I would love to hear facts from those who have experienced this. What were you seeing? What did your vet say about the diet and your gliders? What changes have you made (if any) and what differences have you noted since the change?


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Kristy55303



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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:12 pm

Symptoms were initially cracked fur and minor weight loss at first to more weight loss, loss of energy, tails not being bushy and hairs on tails seeming like they were thinning but not in an over grooming manner, joeys lost that were newly oop or ip by cannabalization, dehydration was last to set in with continued weight loss and continuance of the symptoms listed. Once i switched cold turkey back to HPW my last resort, everything seemed to start to improve within a week and a half. The fur of course and coats took about a month to get back to normal but dehydration, energy, even fluffier tails, and definitely weight improved more drastically than I had expected.



I do believe Candy has her whole heart into the diet as well and worked very hard on it.

kristy
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:20 pm

To my understanding, Candy is only just now being made aware of the problems. That, in my opinion, is a bit alarming. I just do not understand why no one took the time to contact her, yet took the time to contact other people. It is, after all, her diet plan.

That said, I feed the blended diet, and have for about a year. The version I feed is version 4. In that time, Munch's weight has remained about the same (although, looking at my notebook now, I notice that he is 5 grams heavier than he was in November), whereas Monk has gained a fair amount (98 in November, 115 today). I haven't noticed any problems in their fur, each of their vet checks have been fantastic, and their activity level is normal for them.

Thinking back, only one "odd" moment stands out in the last few months --- and that was a few weeks ago when Monk was surprisingly active between the hours of 7am and 9:30am. Odd, because she usually goes to bed around 7:00am. She was running on the wheel, playing with toys, and just in general acting like she had a great deal of energy. She slept later that night, but was back on her normal schedule the next. Other than that -- no odd, or concerning moments.
I should note that Monk was also in heat the day that her odd behavior occurred.

My gliders are not breeding, so I wonder if that is why I haven't had any problems? Perhaps it is just breeding pairs being affected?
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:51 pm

Perhaps it is just breeding pairs. I also did version #4. I contacted Val and Adri, two people that have been in the community and I trust for any advice that involves health. Adri is a friend i talk to daily almost, of course she is going to know. She has been around and has a lot of great advice. I had no idea at the time it was diet related. Not until i switched and others did the same and had the same symptoms, did the pieces all fall together for me at least. I would rather this be something we can learn from, adjust what is needed perhaps for breeding gliders, and not be drama. The thread was not intended to bash the diet or Candy and i'm sure certainly not to hurt any feelings. I know that much, it was posted to bring awareness to what is concerning.

Unfortunately, It is hard Sara to compare your exp with a couple gliders that do not breed, to compare them with more than 20 gliders that were having issues in my home in total that were in breeding situations plus at least 6 other breeders thus far. Breeding gliders just like humans I would assume naturally need more nutrition than non-breeding. Breeding takes a lot out of any living being. If making this concern public can save a glider or more, I find it valuable. I am very glad my gliders are back to how they have always been now but it did take a diet change to their original diet to do that.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:54 pm

Val, everything has changed since i changed back to HPW with the naked brand green machine juice, The serious issues changed almost immediately and the coats were all changed by 1-1.5 months for the gliders that took the longest. It was a drastic quick change to say the least.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:44 am

Of those with the more serious concerns (not just cracked fur), I see the following people posting their experiences: Alden, kristy, Allie, Jen. Who am I missing?

I ask because these four people all live in the north, all within close proximity to each other. It makes me wonder if there could be some environmental component to this? Do we have anyone living in the south or east who has reported these issues?

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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Spoonfulofsugars

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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:48 am

Well, I'm in the great North Woods but have had the same issues and recently switched back to HPW.

I have been doing tons of research as I work on developing my new diet and I have some theories of my own.
Gliders have a very special digestive system that is designed primarily to breakdown the complex carbs found in saps, gums, manna, etc. They may eat grasses/plants and of course worms/bugs when they are available. So my first thought is that their systems are having issues with the breakdown of the ingredients found in the babyfoods and cereals that are in the blended and not found in their natural habitat? But I am consulting a zoologist/nutritionist on this and haven't heard back from her as of yet.

As much as some people are concerned with the amount of honey in the HPW being excessive, I believe it works better with their system than our human food even though it is only a simple carb, it not only gives them energy but still allows them to break it down and retain much of the vitamins and minerals that the honey has to offer. Much the same as the saps and gums they get in the wild.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it!


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CandyOtte

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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:11 pm

Hi everyone. I am just now getting to this board to read responses here. I have posted long responses on Glider Central if any one would like to go read.

I am willing to discuss the problem with those that have had experiences that need to be addressed. There are however so many variables involved in glider health that I am not sure diet is the only common factor.

I did address in my post on GC the fact that in the wild gliders breed seasonally and I understand this has been associated with times when insects and proteins are more available. Perhaps the Blended Diet offers the higher protein and is contributing to year round back to back breeding that may not be good for gliders in the long run.

I also have to consider that the past year has been one of weather extremes. January and February 2010 set cold records in Florida and I think elsewhere. We then followed that up with a summer that broke all kinds of heat records and currently the winter cold and snow falls across the US seem to be out of the norm as well. I know my electric bills say I have been either heating or cooling the house a lot more than past years which has made our indoor air quality very DRY. I have to think the weather extremes have to have some influence on glider health and well being also.

I do wish the individuals involved had contacted me so we could discuss the concerns. As I have said on GC and LGG - where Adri also opened threads to bring up the issues, which she has not had direct experience with, I would have preferred that those with first hand concerns had contacted me, or at least spoken for themselves.

Please feel free to email LuvMyGliderKids@aol.com if you have personal concerns and I do not respond on the boards. Now that the topic has been opened in three places, I have trouble keeping track who I have responded to and who has said what where.

In addition, my life is in a bit of a turmoil at the moment. I am in the process of selling my home to downsize to one that is better suited to my needs. This 3000 sq foot, 5 bedroom 2.5 bath house was perfect for a family of 8 including 5 very active boys, 7 cats 3 dogs and a turtle but is much too large for me, the two adult sons that are living with me, my two small dogs and the gliders. I have been in this house for 22 years and am now faced with sorting, purging and packing so I can move into a small manageable home. I will not be on the boards as much and putting a lot of thought into 'fixing' the Blended Diet - if it indeed needs fixing - is not the first thing I need to address each day.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:13 pm

Celeste - are you one of the 5 breeders Adri included in the opening of this thread?
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 07, 2011 8:12 pm

Something_To_Believe_In wrote:
Of those with the more serious concerns (not just cracked fur), I see the following people posting their experiences: Alden, kristy, Allie, Jen. Who am I missing?

I ask because these four people all live in the north, all within close proximity to each other. It makes me wonder if there could be some environmental component to this? Do we have anyone living in the south or east who has reported these issues?

If the issue was environmental or weather/temperature- they wouldn't see improvement when switched back or to another diet.
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Adri



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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:23 pm

jacknsally wrote:
Something_To_Believe_In wrote:
Of those with the more serious concerns (not just cracked fur), I see the following people posting their experiences: Alden, kristy, Allie, Jen. Who am I missing?

I ask because these four people all live in the north, all within close proximity to each other. It makes me wonder if there could be some environmental component to this? Do we have anyone living in the south or east who has reported these issues?

If the issue was environmental or weather/temperature- they wouldn't see improvement when switched back or to another diet.

I agree Nancy, nor do I believe the weather would ever affect the weight, milk production, rejection nor cannibalization of joeys. JMHO
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:08 pm

From my post on GC
Quote :
How many of you switched to the Blended diet because you were having difficulty getting your gliders to eat fruits and vegetables?I switched to the blended diet after my gliders quit eating BML and HPW, they never cleaned up their fruits and vegetables.

What changes did you see in that behavior when you changed to the Blended diet.I have had three gliders gain weight, they are all cleaning up their vegetables and most of their fruit, I do over feed, lol.

Have you discussed the Blended diet with your vet and showed your vet the comparison chart for nutrients in the Blended diet, BML and HPW? What were your vet's comments? Did your vet see any part of the diet that should be of concern? Please share the comments from your vet with me.I sent my vet the diet when Candy first posted it on GC. After being on it for almost a year, my vet things their fur is outstanding and they all look great. I have seen no changes in activity levels.


I also want to add that I switched to this diet shortly after almost losing my little Jadzia, she was on HPW from the breeder and I was feeding HPW at that time. She is doing outstanding, she has gained weight and currently has her third set of twins (this was her fourth pregnancy, the first being a single).

I feed the original version of the blended diet. My gliders get peas, carrots, corn, green beans, cauliflower and broccoli every night and I rotate fruit nightly between a fruit smoothie with berries, melon, grapes and avocado. I use treats sparingly.

I would like to add that when little Jadzia has joeys in pouch or is nursing joeys I give her and Worf enough food for three gliders and if they clean it up I increase the amount.

Also, out house is 68 degrees and lower at night, not my doing. If I had my way it would be a lot warmer in here. BRRRR
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:10 pm

however, hun that is not how the diet is written, I'm truly happy yours are doing well I am, what I see is a lot of, is people upping the amounts that are breeding, and or adding in extra things to the diet. If this needs to be done, then it needs to be written differently. I did ask in the beginning if breeding gliders needed anything extra, I was told no so therefore stayed as the diet was written. This is not necessarily bad you give more etc, it is just an observation i am seeing. Unless it is just me, do people see the diet working w/o vet tests etc for those breeding when they add in extra supplements or change how it is written to I guess we would call it a modified version of their own? I am also seeing that.

I.E so and so isn't having an issue and so and so is using xyz amount of diet or extra supplement added to the written original diet. Like I said, possibly not at all bad, it is working for you but the breeders with the issues including myself seem to have done the diet as written. Just an observation.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:48 pm

Quote :
Celeste - are you one of the 5 breeders Adri included in the opening of this thread?

I spoke to Adri about some concerns I had but never knew that there were others except Jen102375. It has only been about 2 weeks since I switched back to the HPW and I have noticed them being a lo more active but their fur is slow to return to normal :( and I DO notice it more on my breeding females.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:51 pm

Celeste - I assume you were using your version of the Blended Diet with the powdered eggs.

Are any of you other folks that experienced difficulties using the powdered egg mix from Celeste?

Which versions of the Blended Diet mix were each of you using?

So far the feed back seems to be that breeders that offered more than the 2 tsp serving or offered additional protein were NOT seeing any problems.

Are there other breeders using the Blended Diet and feeding 2 tsp per glider? Please share your observations good or bad. Please also share which version you use.

Thanks for your input.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:00 pm

I'm pretty sure (but Celeste can correct me if I am wrong) that Celeste only used/uses the powdered eggs for a travel/emergency batch of the diet and NOT every day. She stated as much when the topic came up.

Just putting that out there so that no one tries to blame any issue with her gliders on powdered eggs.

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~*~ Val ~*~
Passionate = one step down from crazy

We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious of our treasures - Thornton Wilder

We are what we are, no matter what we might wish to be, or pretend to be. - Dean Koontz in The Face

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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:29 pm

No we use real eggs. We did/do not like the idea of powdered due to preservatives and such. We fed as written, as I asked before we started if there was anything that needed to be changed for breeding gliders and was told no. We us the original version.

We always increased the amount of blended offered once joeys are 5 weeks OOP. We've always had the same symptoms. Our worst looking glider stopped breeding around the same time we switched to this diet. So tech. they've been non-breeding this whole time, and yet-they still look the worst. So it's not just breeding gliders that have been affected here.

I've always considered them 'breeding' glider until recently, but since they've not had a joey in months, since last May/June- the problems they had wouldn't be joey-related.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:30 am

Vals right, I have not been using the powdered eggs in my diet and I increased the protein for my breeding females as well by giving them extra blended and extra mealies.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:45 am

When a glider is pregnant or nursing it makes sense to feed more food to this animal. We do it with the horses, cattle and dogs all the time.

I not only feed more of the blended mix, they also get more fruit and vegetables also.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 am

Thank you for your response Celeste. I was not trying to blame anything on the powdered eggs, just exploring another possible variable.

Unfortunately, I still do not agree with using powdered eggs in the 'dry ingredients' you sell as the yet to be renamed "Blended Diet Revised." I find it interesting that you choose to sell something to others you do not use yourself.

I would still like to know which version anyone using the Blended Diet has been using.
It would be helpful to see if there is an association between any one of the versions I have posted and the gliders with problems and those that do not have problems.

We cannot problem solve if those who have concerns are not willing to share more information concerning the version they use and the vegetables and fruits they use most frequently. For instance, there might be an association between those that feed lots of bok choi or those that feed no leafy greens like spinach or collards.

I need more information before I can begin to do any problem solving thinking.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:51 am

Candy, people have noted previously that they feed a variety of fruits and veggies. I have not seen one person having difficulties that tends to rely on just one fruit and veggie. I, personally, do not think that the fruits and veggies are really a problem -- if they were, wouldn't we be seeing this problem with people who rely on the fruit smoothies and veggie relishes (which many do)? I use a lot of papaya here (in combination with other fruits, but my gliders don't really care for any fruit other than papaya) and I have not had the problems that others are describing.

Also, just to point out -- the discussion here is not about Celeste's use of powdered egg. If memory serves -- I believe that there is another thread for that. I don't mean to be rude, I just don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about the powdered egg, as quite honestly discussing the concerns about the Blended Diet is much more important at this point.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:58 pm

Quote :
We fed as written, as I asked before we started if there was anything that needed to be changed for breeding gliders and was told no. We use the original version.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:47 pm

WintersSong wrote:

Also, just to point out -- the discussion here is not about Celeste's use of powdered egg. If memory serves -- I believe that there is another thread for that. I don't mean to be rude, I just don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about the powdered egg, as quite honestly discussing the concerns about the Blended Diet is much more important at this point.

Sara is right, let's use the other thread for that discussion so we can focus on one topic at a time.

I'd like to say something. I can understand why Candy would feel a bit upset over this as no one would ever want to feel any sort of guilt over the potential possibility of causing harm to other's gliders. With that said...I will say that it is obvious that Candy has put a lot of time and effort into her diet. I for one, appreciate that as I am one of the owners that actually rely on others for diets. I admit that I do not have the time or patience or even knowledge to create my own diet. I may tweak a diet and observe it's effects but in general, I look to other diets as a staple. So for that, I thank Candy for her time and effort even though I use another diet. People like Candy give us choices and I do believe she is looking out for the good. With that said, let's assume that for breeding females, this diet isn't sufficiant in necessary nutrients. (that seems to be the possible case) HPW has a tweaked version for breeders. So perhaps this is a good opportunity to all collaborate and help Candy figure out what needs to be tweaked, perhaps protein, perhaps something else.
In my own opinion, as far as weather playing a role...I can see the cracked fur as being a result of that but not the thinning tails, loss of joeys, cannibalization, etc. Those all seem to have a more common denominator of more importance and I think we can all agree that weather wouldn't cause this. (at least I'm *pretty* sure)

So really, to figure this out we all know that 50 heads are better than 1.
I think this is a good opportunity to come together and try to fix this. Learning from this is a good thing since no one has the money or resources to perform a true diet study. This could be the best we can do. For now.

I am a non-breeder, but I can still observe and put myself in others' shoes.
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PostSubject: Re: Blended Diet Concerns   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:51 pm



I again wanted to add that the gliders here that look the worst: Thinning tails, greasy and discolored coats. Are not breeding gliders.
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