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Midnight
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PostSubject: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:39 am

I'm not sure where to post this so i'm apologizing in advanced!

My boyfriends sugar gliders need serious help! I would like to know if i'm treating and doing everything right!

Mary/Pappy told me to ask you guys for help.

Background/History
My boyfriend has two sugar glider's he's had for a few years now. Not sure on age sense they where rescues. They were a present from his ex about 4 years ago. They are not very socialized and like to bite. The female is named Dr. Mutombo (sp?) and the males named Pustulio.

Diet:
Old Diet
The person who owned (a rescuer) them prior gave my boyfriend a list of things to feed them sadly we didn't find out till 2 days ago that this is a harrable diet. Trust me i'm kicking myself for not doing research and finding out what they really should have been eating!!!

*They ALWAYS have access to these pellets (which they hate and never eat) and dried papayas. *They ALWAYS have water and usually fresh every other day.
*Every night (altho my boyfriend forgets a night or two...Which is why I feed them sometimes) they are feed sausages & blueberry or peach yogurt. Occasionally they are feed meal worms, but they haven't had them for a few month now (My boyfriends mom was sup-post to order them).

New Diet
This has only been there Diet for a few days sadly we didn't know this is what they should have been eating all a long and my boyfriend had just done what he was taught by the person he got them from. =[

The BML Diet
*1/2 cup Honey
*1 4oz bottle PREMIXED Gerber juice with yogurt
*1/4 cup Wheat Germ
*1 Teaspoon of Rep-Cal HERPTIVITE vitamin suppliment
*2 teaspoons Rep-Cal Calcium Suppliment non-phosphorus with Vit. D3 in it
*2 2 1/2 oz jar of Gerber Chicken baby food (Chicken with Chicken Gravy)
*1 Egg boiled
*1/4 cup of Apple Juice
*1/2 cup dry baby cereal

* I'm also giving them meal worms covered in Rep-Cal HERPTIVITE & Rep-Cal Calcium Suppliment.

Housing:
Old Cage
They where both in the same cage. The old cage was getting rusty but Ive never seen them bite at the bars. We had planned on getting them a new cage for X-mas.

New Cage etc...
I have Pustulio (the Male) in a carrier w/ a fleece blanket as of now.
I have Dr. Mutombo (the Female) is in a new cage we just got on 12/1/2010. The cage is smaller then the old one. We got her all new toys, bed, and wheel.

Currently the carrier and cage are next to eachother so they can call to eachother.

Problem
I had noticed Pustulio lost some weight over the last few weeks. Hes not skinny but he always use to be a chunker lol. Where Dr. Mutombo was always more on the skinner side (probably because she always running on her wheel.) He's still alil bit bigger then her but he's not as big as he was before.

11/30/2010 - Late Evening
Something wrong with Pustulio. He is having trouble getting up the cage to his hammock and keeps falling down to the bottom. I've had to pick him up with gloved twice already and help him back into the hammock. He acting almost like he can't see and his head moving around like he disoriented/drunk. The last time I picked him up I checked him over, there is nothing physically wrong with him (no cuts or wounds and his eyes seemed fine). He's acting like hes having neurological problems! Dr. Mutombo is acting fine tho!

12/1/2010 - Morning
I had no carrier or heating pad with me lastnight. They were at my dads house and he would have killed me if I was driving around so late and waking him up =/. I stayed up all night with the lil guy, putting him back in his hammock everytime he tried to get out. I turned up the heat and had my boyfriend start a fire in the fire place to keep the room warm for him. As soon as my boyfriends mother was up he ask her about taking them to the vet and I ran out and got the carrier and heating pad from my dads house. As soon as Dr. office opened we called and made a emergance appt.

Dr.'s Diagnosis
The Dr. said its neurological and could be cause by a number of reasons. paracites, ear infection, calcium deficiency, cancer, poison etc...She said he is not having eye refects and can not see anything (dont know if this could be permanent). She wants us to give it a shot at treating him and hoping he will turn around but if he goes down hill its best to euth him. She said we have to keep the two seperated incase its contagaious. No heating pad because she doesnt want him to over heat. She wants us to start them on a new diet (just wish I knew before this all happened =[...I keep kicking myself about it). She didn't want to test him (blood, x-rays, etc), she said he would need to be knocked out and because where not sure whats wrong with him there could be a underlying problem that could be fatal if he was to be put under.

Dr.'s Recommened Diet:
This is what the Dr. Recommened! But we could not find all the ingredents and I spoke with a few people online who told me to go with the BML

50% insectivore/carnivore diet
50% leadbeater's mixture

Leadbeater's mixture:
150ml warm water
150ml honey
1 shelled hard-boiled egg
25g high protein baby cereal
1 tsp vitamin/mineral supplement

She said to get guargum (sp?) also

Meds:
Panacur - 1 syringe (2 units) by mouth every 24 hours for 3 days
Prednisolone syrup 15mg/ml - 5 units (0.05ml) by mouth BID for 14 days.
Calciquid (calcium Glubionate) - 5 units by mouth BID for 14 days
Baytril 20mg - 3 units (0.03ml) by mouth BID for 14 days

12/1/2010 - Late Afternoon
I've got him to eat some of the BML from a dish...but hes acting very drunk and has alot of difficulty doing so. I attempted to force feed him. By holding him and dropping the liquid into his mouth but I can't do it. I'm using gloves and a towel and trying to be gentle. I tried to hold his head but he keep squishing his face back in between my fingers and wants nothing to do with the syringe full of food. He just stressing out when I handle him. I have no idea how to get the med's into him! I should have had the Dr. show me to see if she could! but she didn't ask and he hadn't ate and the med's couldn't be givin on a empty stomach!

I'm trying not to stress out cause I don't want him to stress out but he not social at all. And wants nothing to do with being handled. Hes screaming trying to bite the glove, squirming, and fighting me the whole way. I've dealt with aggressive patients before when working at a vets office...Pilling or giving liquid med's to aggressive cats and dogs. I'm not scared of being bitten but I've never dealt with something so aggressive thats so tiny! I've afraid of hurting him by being to forceful when hes squirming and fighting.

He likes the taste of the liquid food, he try's to lap it up in the dish but hes so uncoordinated he's almost stepped in the dish or thrown his entire face in the dish a few times...I really don't want him to get sticky by doing this...=/ but when he is being held he wants nothing to do with food just being put back down...

12/2/2010 - Very Earlier AM
I only gave the Baytril and Calcium. I put the doses in a small dish and mix alil BML cause it sticky. and one by one I dipped the meal worms in and feed it to him till there was no more med's or BML left in the lil dish. He loved it. I had to do this because he was being so difficult and I didn't want to hurt him or stress him out anymore. I tried handling him and med him a bunch of times with no success. =/

I have insulin syringes and tried to inject the meal worms but the BML wont go threw the needle because its to thick? And the med's are such small doses they only comes out in a drop and most of its left in the syringe and needle. So thats not gonna work. =/

This morning there seems to be no change or improvement with him. He's still making angry noises when I pick him up or touch the carrier and moving about like hes drunk.

He didn't want the meal worms this morning but it looks like he ate the ones I left covered in BML in a dish for him lastnight but noticed this morning it looked like he threw most of it up or spit it up?

12/2/2010 - Morning/Early Afternoon
I didn't give him the dewormer yet. He left me a fecal sample it was dark brown almost blackish...very similar to the female's stool.

I decided to handle him again and trying and give him the med's with a syringe. I don't know if hes weaker or just get use to being picked up but I was able to do it this time. He fought me alil but wasn't as squirmy as last night. I only gave him the Baytril, Pred and Calcium doses.

I had him out to check on him and he crawled all over me, still very drunk and unbalanced. But hes not acting aggressive and I was able to pet him and let him crawl on my hand without the glove and he didn't try to bite me. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing.

My boyfriend got him to drink some water too!

12/2/2010 - Late Afternoon
He has been eating the BML & meal worms covered in Rep-Cal HERPTIVITE & Rep-Cal Calcium Suppliment. He is also drinking some water!

Hes being really friendly and climbing all over us. But he did bite my boyfriend when he was in the carrier.

***Dr. Mutombo is eating the BML and still acting completely fine altho seems alil stress thats she alone in a new cage and I think shes missing her buddy.

12/2/2010 - Very Earlier AM
Gave meds w/ syringe except the dewormer! Still acting drunk altho I think its not as bad as before but i'm not positive. He alil more agressive then this morning when giving the meds.

These are video's I took right after I gave him his meds. They where all done with my phone (Droid moto 1) The first is very dark and was taken in my boyfriends room. The other two were in the bathroom cause the light was better which is why I was trying to keep him on the towel. anytime you dont see him on camera hes on my sholders or crawling around on my back lol...which I way I said "not again" or "Ohh no" cause he keep doing it lol and I couldn't reach him. lol =P








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Midnight
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PostSubject: Video's   Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:41 am

Video code or link code didn't work???

hmm...try copy and pasting the URls???


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Midnight
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PostSubject: Ghrrr   Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:42 am

That didn't work either!


How do I post video codes!!!! =/
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BCChins
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:11 am

OK I am not sure how you post video's but you are trying your best to get the meds into your little guy good job.

Here is another trick I have found to work very well. First take a few different baby foods and try to offer them to him on the end of your finger. Find out which one he likes best just never let your finger run out of food keep dipping it. Then measure out your medicine and place it on a spoon and add some of the baby food to it mix it in because Baytril is bitter and tastes nasty. Only put on enough baby food to mask the flavor because he is not going to eat an entire spoonful. I find 99% of mine love Hawaiian Delight. You need to get all of those meds in even the dewormer to get him well. Did your vet do a fecal test. If not I would bring in some poops from both of your gliders since they were housed together. You can run one fecal on them both just get poopies from them both and put into the container.
I would stick with the BML as they are eating it for you.

Please ask any questions you have here and we will try to help you.
I would really consider the fecal test because if they have parasites you will need to treat your other glider and you want to treat them at the same time.

We will keep them in our thoughts and PLEASE keep us updated as we worry about everyone's gliders.
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Something_To_Believe_In
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:59 am

Please register so that you can take full advantage of this board.

Also, please call me. Your little one is pretty ill. I can help.
Also, do not switch to the diet the Dr. recommended. BML is better than that diet.

Call me
I'm on vacation, so you will have to call my cell. Leave a message if I don't answer.
806-395-0181

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Chris R

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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:04 am

I have found it easiest to give meds by "burrito wrapping" the glider in a piece of fleece. Much like you would swaddle a newborn baby, making sure arms and legs are securely tucked in, then syringe meds to him...

Have you done a tent test on him for hydration? A tent test is where you gently pinch skin together (back of neck, shoulder area works great for me) and see how long it takes to go back down to normal, it should do so immediately, if it does not then you have a dehydration issue on your hands and need to get him into the vet for sub-qued fluids.

Your in a great place for help with your glider. Please keep us updated and ask any questions you need to. If we dont have an answer, we probably know someone who does!! Good luck!!

Oh and absolutely call Val!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:33 am

Your best bet is to call Val. She'll help you, she dealt with so many of those health issues.
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Midnight6333



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PostSubject: ...   Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:08 pm

I was waiting on the dewormer just untill I got the fecal. Which I got today from both of them. =]

I am registered (Midnight6333) and activated it...It says i'm signed in...I don't know why i'm coming up as guest =/

Val i'll be calling you soon! I just have to shower and bring the fecal samples in to the vet before they close.

Update:
Got the meds into him =]...My boyfriend thinks hes improving but i'm not sure cause hes still acting drunk. But hes got tons of energy and keeps trying to escape as soon as I open the carrier. lol

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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:13 pm

Okay I'm no longer coming up as guest...I was login lastnight when I posted everything so I don't know why it was doing that =/

I'm gonna try again to post video's

Here:
Video 1 (very dark)
video 2
Video 3

These are video's I took right after I gave him his meds lastnight. They where all done with my phone (Droid moto 1) The first is very dark and was taken in my boyfriends room. The other two were in the bathroom cause the light was better which is why I was trying to keep him on the towels. anytime you dont see him on camera hes on my sholders or crawling around on my back lol...which I way I said "not again" or "Ohh no" cause he keep doing it lol and I couldn't reach him. lol =P
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:19 pm

Yay it worked! Would you guys like me to repost this in the Neurological Issues section? So you can delete it here? or move it to there?
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:33 pm

We can move it no need to delete it.

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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:59 pm

Okay that works =]
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:39 pm

First of all, my opinion is that you should leave the 2 together as it will be much less stressful for him. If it is contagious, chances are that she already has it, as well and should also be medicated. Once again, this is only my opinion. If it is diet related, you are definitely on the right track by switching to BML and getting calcium into them. Calling Val is your best bet at this point to help with a lot of things. I wish you so much luck and hope that he continues to improve and they both lead a healthier, happier life now that you guys know a bit more about their needs.
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:29 am

Usha77 wrote:
First of all, my opinion is that you should leave the 2 together as it will be much less stressful for him. If it is contagious, chances are that she already has it, as well and should also be medicated. Once again, this is only my opinion. If it is diet related, you are definitely on the right track by switching to BML and getting calcium into them. Calling Val is your best bet at this point to help with a lot of things. I wish you so much luck and hope that he continues to improve and they both lead a healthier, happier life now that you guys know a bit more about their needs.

I agree, I don't like them be separate either. But I don't want him in the cage because i'm worried he will get hurt on the wheel or fall out of the hammock and I don't to stress the female out by putting her in the carrier because she loves running on her wheel...I know because its been keeping me awake at night lol....Also it makes it easier to see how much each of them are eating and drinking.

The Dr. wouldn't let me bring the female in unless I scheduled another appt time for another day sense she seems to be healthy. Nor did the Dr. want to medicate her seen's she not showing any signs. =/

Sorry it took so long for a update!

I did the pinch/tent test on him and his skin didn't go down very quickly. I think he maybe alil dehydrated? Should I give some pedialyte for 24hour tomorrow? He been drinking the water, I've watched him a few times doing it. Vets closed till Monday.

Besides that...I'm noticing lil improvements on coordination. He's not falling over on his back anymore in the carrier...and is able to jump alil bit more now. He seems to be less shaky and better at navigating around. Still no eye reflex tho. He is full of energy and I had to chase him around the bed today after I gave him the meds. Hes been pretty good about the meds but still fights me alil.

Hoping he is getting better, so far I know hes not getting worse.
I'll take and upload somemore video's tomorrow!

Btw Val I Pm'ed you =]
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Chris R

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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:59 am

If you have no way of sub-qing fluids then forcing fluids orally (pedialtye works) every hour would be a good thing to getting him more hydrated than what he is drinking on his own
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:04 pm

Hi there and welcome to TSS.

Val won't get a pm until she gets home today.

You've given a very detailed synopsis and it sounds like you're very observant. We all learn as we go, and there's no point in being angry at yourself for the past. You're here learning now and that's what matters today. A few questions:

What tests did your vet do to come to the diagnosis?
Have you gotten results from the fecal you took in?
Did the vet perform a full exam, including dental?

I agree with Val about BML being better than the second diet you listed. I would stick with that for now. They should be offered fruits and vegetables in addition to the liquid mix. Yogurt is OK, but I would eliminate the sausage.

In regards to separating from his cagemate, I would modify a cage in which they could be together. If the problem is a contagion, the other glider has already been exposed, so separation does not help at this point. Stress can exacerbate symptoms and prolong recovery times from illness or injury. Have you ever seen a reptarium? It's a pvc frame with a heavy mesh covering. It can be stood on end or laid on its side. I used both the 22 and 38 gal sizes for a neuro glider I once had. Laid on the side, it offered enough floor space for her to move around and her cagemate could still crawl up some. My local Petsmart sells the 38 gal size. Another caging option that I've done is to put them in the regular cage and stretch a large piece of fleece across it to act as a hammock if he fell. (On the video, it looked like his grip is good, though). You have to be sure there are no hard items above the hammock, though. It will act as a "safety net", so to speak.

I understand that it's easier to monitor intake of food and water when they're in separate cages. You can always take him out at feeding time and observe how he eats. Continue to do the tent test to check for dehydration.

Neurological symptoms can be a result of many health issues. It's important to rule out problems such as infection so as to best treat the illness.
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Midnight6333



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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:41 pm

"What tests did your vet do to come to the diagnosis? "
No test, except fecal...She said in order to do blood tests or xrays etc...she would have to knock him out. and scenes we don't know age there could be a underlying issue that would be fatal if we knocked him out, not to mention pricey.

"Have you gotten results from the fecal you took in?"
They wont have results till monday/tomorrow

"Did the vet perform a full exam, including dental?"
She looked him over. Check his eyes and heart. Never did a tent test tho.

What are some good fruits and vegetables to give him? He has been eating the BML and some mealworms as a treat after the meds.

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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:55 pm

Each glider has preferences, but watermelon, cantaloupe, honeydew melon, blueberries, strawberries, papaya, peaches, pineapple, mango (no skin), nectarines, apples and pears are a few. As for vegetables, corn, squash, green beans, carrots, peas, spinach and okra are some choices. Mine also get a "salad" of dandelion greens, green/red/yellow/orange bell peppers, cucumber, cherry tomotoes and snap peas.

Anesthesia can be risky, but it's important to find the cause of the symptoms in order to treat. The risks of anesthesia grow the more it's given, so it's not something I recommend to do routinely, but the glider would not be under very long to do xray and blood draw.

Something else I want to mention is behavior. You mentioned that he had become more friendly. Sometimes, irritability and "meaness" is a symptom of illness. As the causative issue is treated, the glider gets "nicer". This is why we often say that changes in behavior may be a reason to have a vet visit.
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Midnight6333



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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Sun Dec 05, 2010 6:57 pm

thefotokat wrote:
Sometimes, irritability and "meaness" is a symptom of illness. As the causative issue is treated, the glider gets "nicer". This is why we often say that changes in behavior may be a reason to have a vet visit.

He was always "mean" lol...The female was nicer. But he's always had a attitude with us. They were never well socialized (rescues) and my boyfriend and his family were always scared of being bitten. So they just feed them and took care of them (the best to there knowledge) and the closest they got to them was hand feeding mealworms.

Hes so much better about handling, only puts up a fight when I med him. I think he might be cage aggressive tho cause he try's to bite me and makes angry noises when I go in there, but once hes out I can handle him without the gloves. So far I still have yet to be bitten. *knock on wood* lol
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PostSubject: =]   Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:27 pm

Update

Sorry for the late update. I've been working at a new job and been alil worn out and busy. My boyfriend has been watching him but I've been giving the meds and checking on him when i'm home. Hes doing so much better! Hes not shaking or acting drunk anymore and seems almost normal . He has been eating his food (the female is eating and doing well also). Still spiting it out now and then tho. He had some loose stool the last two days but it seems to be clearing up now. My guess was it was from the change in diet, pedialyte (from that one 24 hour day I did it) and/or meds.

I've been meaning to take a video of him. I'll try to do it soon! but he seems alot better and tomorrow (or soon) I think i'm going to put him back in with the female. She'll be happy.

Thank you everyone for all your help. I'll try to give more updates soon!
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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:02 pm

Spitting out pieces of food is completely normal. All gliders do it. They are sap suckers, and they suck all of the moisture/nutrients out of the food in their mouths, and then spit little half moon shaped pieces of food out.

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Midnight6333



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PostSubject: Re: Help!?   Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:40 pm

That explains alot! lol...I've seen them do it before he got sick so I wasn't too concerned. It makes sense because I pinch it between my fingers, when I first saw him do it, and it was dry and turned to dust. I thought to myself "Its like he sucked on it" lol XD

Do you think there will be any problems reuniting the two? should I go about it a certain way?
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